The Value of 'insights' and 'Insights'

In this episode of the Consumer Insights Podcast, we speak with Greg Ambrose, VP of Consumer Marketing at Cineplex.

Insights come in all shapes and sizes. Whether they’re big, small, or somewhere in between, there’s one thing that doesn’t change: the fundamental value they bring to businesses. 

What matters most are the outcomes they lead to and how they help to align organizations to move together in the right direction.

In this episode of The Consumer Insights Podcast, Thor is joined by Greg Ambrose, Vice President of Consumer Marketing at Cineplex.

They cover:

• How Greg’s definition of an insight has involved with time

• The difference between “insights” and “Insights” and why they’re both valuable 

• Why the outcome of an insight is more important than the insight itself

• The role of insights in business alignment

• Why small error rates can still be worth paying attention to

• Why it’s important to understand the roles that emotion and identity play in consumer decision making

• The value of social connection 

• How internal and external partnerships can deliver value 

• What to look for in an agency

• Why it’s crucial for insights teams to avoid becoming too insular

• How a variety of experience across brands, verticals, or companies can boost your insights career

• The characteristics of a successful insights team

• How new ways of working can pose particular challenges for insights professionals

If you’re interested in how to leverage insights of all shapes and sizes to achieve better business alignment, tune in to this episode of The Consumer Insights Podcast.

You can access all episodes of the Consumer Insights Podcast on Apple, Spotify, Google, or use the RSS feed with your favorite player. Below, you'll find a lightly edited transcript of this episode.

Thor Olof Philogène:

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Consumer Insights Podcast. Today I'm excited to have an incredible insights leader for what I know will be a fantastic conversation. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Greg Ambrose, VP of Consumer Marketing at Cineplex, a top tier Canadian entertainment and media company. 

Greg has more than 20 years of insights experience that spans multiple industries, including CPG, retail, financial services, and more. He's previously worked at brands like Tim Hortons, Coca Cola and Indigo, as well as organizations like IDC and Jackman Reinvents. He also has an MBA from the University of Toronto. Thank you so much for joining me today, Greg.

Greg Ambrose - 00:01:19:

Great to be here, Thor. Looking forward to it.

Thor - 00:01:22:

Greg, the audience wants to get to know you, so could you take a couple of minutes to tell us about yourself? Tell us about your company and how you got to where you are today. How did it all begin?

Greg - 00:01:32:

Sure. As you mentioned, I've been in the field of insights for a long time. I grew up in market research. My father was very involved, and so from a young age, I had an interest in market research, but I wasn't really sure where to take it. As you mentioned, I've worked for a number of different companies, both on the agency and client side, in progressively expansive roles. 

So starting very much in sort of consumer research on the agency side, working on projects with CPG clients or retail clients, moving into client side roles where I was able to take on more strategy, loyalty, and marketing work. 

This last role, I've been with Cineplex Entertainment for five and a half years, joining them in 2017 to lead loyalty and research. And in the past few years, that role has expanded to encompass all of consumer marketing. So my role now includes brand marketing, product marketing, analytics, research, and loyalty.

Greg's definition of an insight

Thor - 00:02:34:

And as an insights leader, having experience working in so many different industries and verticals, how do you define an Insight? And please tell us also if you feel that that definition has changed over the course of your career.

Greg - 00:02:50:

Sure, that's an interesting question, and I think it's one that the industry has repeatedly surfaced over the last number of years. And fundamentally for me, it's something that either makes you think differently, feel differently, or act differently. I'm more interested in what the outcome is versus what the actual observation, fact or insight might be. 

I also think we as an industry can be a little too rigid about what we call an insight and what we don't, because fundamentally, we are a service function in many respects, and it matters really what it's going to be used for. 

Fundamentally for me, it's something that either makes you think differently, feel differently, or act differently. I'm more interested in what the outcome is versus what the actual observation, fact or insight might be. 

And if I've got my Chief Operating Officer or another senior leader in the organization asking me for insights or asking my team for insights, really, what do they want? They might need a fact, they might need just sort of some direction. They don't necessarily need that “light bulb a-ha, oh, by the way, that's not an insight, we'll come back to you when we find one moment”.

I think you can have small i “insights”. They're quick, they could be facts that are valuable to the business.  

Or you can have big I, a-ha, “Insights” that truly do change the way you go forward with the business and influence decision making on a much broader scale.

So I think it's evolved, and the way I like to work with my team and make sure that they're clear is: focus on what the opportunity really is to deliver that support for the business. 

And if I look back through the lens of that question, I think you can have small i “insights”. They're quick, they could be facts that are valuable to the business.  

Or you can have big I, a-ha, “Insights” that truly do change the way you go forward with the business and influence decision making on a much broader scale.

What makes insights so important

Thor - 00:04:36:

I really like that, and you're kind of alluding to it, but based on what you just said, from your perspective, what is it that makes those insights so important?

Greg - 00:04:46:

So I think they can help clarify, they can help show purpose. And the other big thing that I've come to realize over the last few years is they really help with organizational alignment or business alignment so that you get people thinking the same thing right?

And I think that the other key opportunity with insight development and messaging is not just what it is, but what does it mean and what are the implications of it, what might it not mean? 

Because in an organization like ours, which is medium sized, it's not a massive global network, but it's definitely not a mom and pop shop, it's important to have everybody kind of thinking along the same lines. 

We are looking for direction, we are looking as an organization for opportunities that we can leverage, and the market research or the consumer insights function plays such a critical role in fostering that organizational alignment.

Now, there might be some different interpretations, there might be some different ways that it can be actioned or executed, but we really want to make sure that we're starting with a single source of truth, essentially to borrow more from a digital technology term or a database term, which is what are we really building from and how do we move forward? 

We are looking for direction, we are looking as an organization for opportunities that we can leverage, and the market research or the consumer insights function plays such a critical role in fostering that organizational alignment.

The value of "insights" and "Insights"

Thor - 00:06:03:

Alignment is no doubt a fantastic thing, and if insights can provide you such alignment, that is really a blessing to the entire organization. I couldn't agree with you more. Maybe could you share some stories from times during your career when insights have enabled you to get that type of alignment and innovation and success?

Greg - 00:06:28:

Sure, I have two, and I think they're helpful because one of them is more on that “i” more fact, sort of discovery and the other is more a “I” a-ha, now we're going to operate differently or do something differently. 

The first one was seven years ago, I was at Tim Hortons. And Tim Hortons, for those who might be listening, who weren't aware, it's a very large QSR restaurant operator, now global. 

Coffee is really the bread and butter of Tim Hortons. And for a few years, we were seeing a little bit of slippage in our quality scores as measured by industry assessments, right? Not huge, but enough that it was starting to become a question for the business. 

And it was very challenging for us to figure out how to understand it better and what are we going to do about it. McDonald's was coming up with a big coffee program, other organizations as well. So as a team, we created what we called a “Coffee Army”. 

So we went out to our consumer panel, so we had a consumer panel that was operated by a global research firm. And we found a technology which we were able to put on users’ phones. And people drink Tim Horton's coffee all the time, right? Our heavy users would have two cups a day, three cups a day from our restaurants or stores. 

We were able to understand that 96%, if I remember correctly, of our cups were being delivered perfectly. 

But when you serve over a billion and a half cups of coffee a year, that means you're still having tens of thousands of cups that aren't perfect if you've got that 4% range.

So we basically enlisted about 1000 of our best customers because we didn't need a huge representative sample of low users, high users. We wanted people who were drinking our coffee. 

And so we said, “Every time you have a coffee for the next two weeks, I want you to fill in this form. If your coffee is perfect, then just say ‘It was perfect. Here's when I had it, I'm good.’ If there were any issues with it, tell us and let us know what it was.” 

Because we needed to understand the percentage of our cups that were being delivered perfectly. And for those that weren't, what was the breakdown of issues? 

And so we ran this through and literally captured thousands of thousands of coffee occasions. And as a result, we were able to understand that 96%, if I remember correctly, of our cups were being delivered perfectly. 

But when you serve over a billion and a half cups of coffee a year, that means you're still having tens of thousands of cups that aren't perfect if you've got that 4% range. And issues ranged from there was a problem with the lid, the cup leaked, they made my coffee wrong. It was cold, it was too hot, whatever. 

And we were able to size that because we had enough sample. Now, that gave our operations team and our facilities teams and our restaurant operators better opportunity to train, better opportunity to go back to our manufacturers, our product suppliers, and so really started to reverse those scores because we knew what to deal with. 

So that's an example. I would say there's no real insight in the traditional term, but it really was powerful for the company and it drove alignment and made sure that we were investing in the right things. 

The other example I'm going to give was work I did at Jackman, which was a strategic reinvention consulting company. So back on the agency side now.

We were working with a long term care assisted living facility. So places where seniors go when they are looking for support for their day to day or they have other challenges. And there's so much reticence. 

And we interviewed a lot of people in the buildings who were living there, people who were thinking about going, people who had thought about going and didn't go. And we couldn't really figure out why because almost everybody we spoke to who was living in the facility said to us, “This was the best decision I ever made. I wish I had done it earlier”.

It came down to much more of an emotional element which was, “I'm afraid of losing my identity”. These people were successful in life, they stood for something, they felt they were somebody, and they felt moving into this, they would lose their identity.  

Okay, well, why didn't you do it earlier? And what the hypotheses had been, well, people didn't want to lose their independence. People didn't want to have people doing things for them. People didn't want to feel like they were a burden. So it was all very functional were the hypotheses. 

But what we learned through a series of discussions and sort of brainstorming and sort of other research, it came down to much more of an emotional element which was, “I'm afraid of losing my identity”. These people were successful in life, they stood for something, they felt they were somebody, and they felt moving into this, they would lose their identity. 

It spawned and fostered this campaign of “You are still you. You're just in a different place, but you're still you.” And it informed the organization's marketing, their approach for their training of their staff. And that was a true a-ha moment for that company because they hadn't considered the overwhelming impact that notion of identity had. And so it really changed their trajectory and where they were able to start to build.

Insights as fuel for resilience

Thor - 00:11:31:

I think, Greg, that's a fascinating story with the emotional angle because I do think that hypotheses tend to be very functional, as you say, when you go in and you're pragmatic. So I think that's a fascinating example. 

And if we talk a bit about the world today, speaking of emotions, a lot of people are seeing a world that is evolving rapidly, and in many ways seeing a much tougher world than we had seen in the past years. 

I know that resilience is top-of-mind for many of our listeners at the moment. And given that access to live or in-person entertainment was largely limited for the better part of two years, how did you leverage insights to adapt? Do you have any learnings you can share?

Greg - 00:12:21:

Sure. I think there were a lot of organizations that were affected significantly by closures, by health and safety concerns, by changes in consumer behavior. 

Very few organizations were affected more than we were. We were closed for the better part of a year and a half. We had to restructure and really had to just sort of then figure out: how are we going to reopen? 

So what I was really proud of the team over that period is there was constant energy and constant focus on understanding what was happening and making sure that information got out to those people in our organization who needed it. 

It was a period of intense questioning: what is going to happen? How are people going to come back? When are they going to come back? 

People were ready to get out. There's a reason why experiences like ours can be and are successful. People like to get out and do things with other people, whether it's friends, family, more social occasions.

We operate in a few different spaces. We are Canada's largest theater exhibition firm, so similar to like an AMC globally or the Cineworld chain. And we also have restaurant and gaming facilities where people can come and dine and game, both of which require you to leave your house, both of which require you to engage with physical space. 

And so we're constantly talking about, “What do we need to do to bring you back? How comfortable do you feel? When are you coming back? And when you do come back, what's your behavior going to be like?”

So lots of investigation there, and what we really learned through that, but more importantly, what we learned once we started to reopen was there was an intense craving for social connection. 

People were ready to get out. There's a reason why experiences like ours can be and are successful. People like to get out and do things with other people, whether it's friends, family, more social occasions.

And so that's what we leaned into heavily, this notion of connection. Now, it could be connection, 6ft apart because of restrictions and mandates, but it was about having that experience together. 

There's this notion of laughter in a theater is better than laughter in your basement, right? Because it's communal, it builds. And that's the same for something that's more emotionally distressing, if you're crying with others, or you're scared, or whatever it might be

So one of my other teams that I worked with, and we built a whole new brand campaign and we did extensive marketing, some digital, some out-of-home, made a lot in our own channels, but really focusing on what we call “the guest”. 

We don't call them customers. We call them guests. We shot like a 45 second spot about “Welcome Back to the Movies”. In that, we focused entirely on people, on the guests enjoying themselves. We didn't show the screen. We didn't show the outside of the theater. It was all about people connecting. 

And so what we've seen over the past year or so as our business has ramped up and returned more to a normal state, is just the excitement that Canadians have in returning to the movies and returning to our restaurant buildings because they're spending time together. And we're continuing to lean into that social connection. 

We're in the business of functional out-of-home entertainment. Great. But why are you coming there? You're coming there for that emotional bonding connection, that experience that you can have with others even if you don't know them, right?

There's this notion of laughter in a theater is better than laughter in your basement, right? Because it's communal, it builds. And that's the same for something that's more emotionally distressing, if you're crying with others, or you're scared, or whatever it might be. So something that we definitely leaned into and sort of shared across the business.

Essential tools for insights professionals

Thor - 00:15:49:

It's very interesting that you mentioned that craving for social connection, that emotional need. And now in several examples, you've actually highlighted the importance of identifying those emotional elements and how core they can be. 

And when you do your work, how do you support yourself in terms of tooling? What do you believe insights professionals should–what tools would they benefit from using and why?

Greg - 00:16:19:

Yeah, I think there's different ways to either answer that question or think about that question. I think there are tons of great methodologies, tools, organizations that provide data collection, data capture from a qualitative and a quantitative side. So that really takes me to data. 

We are fortunate to have a longstanding loyalty program that captures a significant portion of our business and our guests, particularly our more frequent ones, so we can mine that data. 

And my research team is great at connecting kind of survey results with actual respondent data so that we can say, “Well, here's what they're saying, but here's what they're doing.” Right? And so how do we see and how do we explain any deltas or changes that we're seeing? 

And that connection is important, which is kind of like my second thing that research teams need from a tool perspective and approach perspective. And it's really partnerships. Those partnerships can be external or internal. 

The worst thing I think that can happen to an insights team is to become too insular and sort of be sort of hunkered down and emerge only when they're called. 

External–working with the right companies who partner with us, they don't have to necessarily be the most technologically advanced, but they have to be savvy enough about our business. 

They have to really understand our wants and needs and opportunities. That's also on us to help work with them and explain it. But they have to be open to it. And I'm less of a fan when I'm working with an agency or a research organization that's a little too rigid about their approach. So how do we customize it, or how do we modify it, or how do we make it sure it's working for us? 

The second part to be on that partnerships is internal. Working with our data analytics team, our data science team, our operations team, our frontline workers, what we call “our cast”, or people sort of scattered throughout the theaters, learning from them, working with them, making sure we're relevant. 

The worst thing I think that can happen to an insights team is to become too insular and sort of be sort of hunkered down and emerge only when they're called. 

We are not a standalone team just focused on market research. We need to understand the frontline, the product, the supply chain. We need to understand the opportunity, the future, the financials, so that we understand what matters. 

How do you get out? How do you make sure you're experiencing? Which takes me to my third point about the tools, which is understanding the business. This is so critical, and I think as I've listened to some of your past episodes, I've heard it expressed in different ways. 

And this is kind of an answer to a lot of the questions you've asked of me, which is: maybe how did I get into different roles? Or how do we find successful insights? Or how do we make sure that we're providing value to the business? We need to be part of the business. 

We are not a standalone team just focused on market research. We need to understand the frontline, the product, the supply chain. We need to understand the opportunity, the future, the financials, so that we understand what matters. 

And so that's what I'm really excited about. And it also energizes the team when they feel like they're part of this bigger organization and doing more and what they're doing matters and how do they see it come to life.

The career benefits of multiple perspectives

Thor - 00:19:20:

I think that is so true, Greg. I couldn't agree with you more. And you've also had the benefit of having quite a diverse career, working with a variety of companies as well, on both brand-side, agency-side. 

How do you think that has impacted the way you approach working with insights and has it impacted and if so, how?

Greg - 00:19:43:

Yeah, I think it's definitely played a role, and it was purposeful. And I know I'm not at all unique in this. 

I think there are a lot of successful or seasoned insights leaders who have experienced both sides of the fence. And I think it's really valuable for all people in our field to understand the dynamics, the pressures, the opportunities, how things are working. And so I think because of that, it's given me a little more patience, a little more perspective, a little more understanding of what is possible.

And so, you know, there have been cases or examples where I have inserted myself perhaps into the process to try and understand: how do we take these two approaches and find a common ground? Because we need to make sure that we're delivering to what the business needs.

I think it's really valuable for all people in our field to understand the dynamics, the pressures, the opportunities, how things are working. And so I think because of that, it's given me a little more patience, a little more perspective, a little more understanding of what is possible.

When I have the fortunate opportunity to talk to newer people in our industry, one thing I'll always say is: Get as much experience and as broad experience as you can. Even if that means within your organization–it doesn't mean you need to quit your job and find a new one. It just says, look for those opportunities where you can get involved in different things.

Now, I'm framing this, and the question is really about agency versus client, but it can be applicable to anything. So if you're at a P&G or Unilever, get experience across different brands, across different portfolios–push for that. There's tons of opportunity now for insights leaders at all levels to help create their own path. Don't wait. Sort of build on those strengths, express curiosity, and drive that path forward for yourself.

Elevating insights within an organization

Thor - 00:21:30:

And let's talk a bit about that because you yourself have held quite a wide range of responsibilities in your previous role. You lead the insights, guest experience, and Loyalty teams. Now you oversee all aspects of consumer marketing.

And with that in mind, what skills do you believe are essential to help elevate insights within an organization? Again, going back to what you said, the worst thing that could happen is that you become too insular.

Greg - 00:21:57:

And I think it's not necessarily an easy path, right? Different organizations have different aptitudes, or they're differently amenable to the role an insights team can play. I think we've covered some of it already. 

So at the risk of repeat: a lot of it is communication, a lot of it is understanding the business, a lot of it is making sure that you're focused on providing value and the right value that comes with conversations. 

I think the characteristics that will make a successful insights team is: those that are curious, those that are collaborative, that make sure that they're understanding what the opportunity is, anchoring it in our world “the guest” and many other worlds, “the customer” or “the consumer” and really making sure that you're expressing the value that this new information brings. 

I think there are lots of people out there who can do all of our jobs. What will differentiate you as a team, and as an individual, is if you just show that you care, show that you're interested, show that you're passionate.

And it could be about anything. It can be about movies, it can be about coffee, it can be about pants, it can be about whatever you want to be passionate about. But I think that care is so important.

And it can be a “capital I” Insight, or it can be observations, facts or findings that help shape and frame them as those opportunities. The two other things I'll close with on that is 1) demonstrate care about the business.

I think there are lots of people out there who can do all of our jobs. What will differentiate you as a team, and as an individual, is if you just show that you care, show that you're interested, show that you're passionate.

And it could be about anything. It can be about movies, it can be about coffee, it can be about pants, it can be about whatever you want to be passionate about. But I think that care is so important.

And 2) be selectively ambitious. Be prideful in your work, and demonstrate it, and then look to take on more, and find those paths, and work with the people who are open to working with you if you're in a large organization.

You may find resistance in some channels or in some quarters. So where can you start to drive that value, and what's the way to do it? You may find a team where the last thing that they're going to want is a 60 page deck on this research you just did. But they might be really open to a lunch with them, or a couple of bullets in an email, or a chance for you to go out and work with their frontline team for the day. 

So again, different ways to approach it, but I think keeping that open mind and finding your channel and your path forward is so critical.

The challenges facing insights teams in the near future

Thor - 00:24:26:

I think that's such great advice for our listeners and for those of us who have at times gotten stuck in the organization trying to drive change. 

If we take a look at kind of the horizon, and of course what's going on in the world, what challenges do you see that could face insights professionals and the wider industry in the near future?

Greg - 00:24:49:

So nothing insurmountable, right? Which is encouraging. 

I think our business is more important than ever. Understanding customers, consumers, guests, understanding people is how businesses will differentiate and be successful. So I am so encouraged and passionate about the role our industry will play going forward across all walks of life. 

One of the real challenges that we're seeing is the new way of working, is what I’ll call it. Whether we were all working from home for a while, for the most part. Now, there's a lot of flex work in our market, and I'm assuming it's also carried out a lot in other markets as well. 

And it's challenging for younger or newer or less familiar employees to build relationships. A successful insights team needs those relationships, and so how do you find ways to continue to build them? It's a two-way street. You can show up, but you’ve got to make sure that whoever you're going to meet and talk to and build with can show up as well. 

One of the real challenges that we're seeing is the new way of working, is what I’ll call it. Whether we were all working from home for a while, for the most part. Now, there's a lot of flex work in our market, and I'm assuming it's also carried out a lot in other markets as well. 

And it's challenging for younger or newer or less familiar employees to build relationships. A successful insights team needs those relationships, and so how do you find ways to continue to build them?

So I think that the way the world is developing, and I framed it as new ways of working, but it's also just the new ways of being. A huge rise in online qual, which is really valuable and has tremendous benefits. 

But nothing really beats getting out into the market, right? Getting into stores, observing customers as they engage. Now, a lot of it is digital retail as well, and there are different ways to observe that. 

But I think what we will just need to do as an industry is continue to understand what's happening with our subjects, if you will, of observation or the markets that we are analyzing and figure out how best to do that so that we don't run the risk of being automated or neglected. But I am very optimistic and looking forward to seeing how the industry continues to develop.

Who in the world of insights Greg would love to have lunch with

Thor - 00:26:58:

Thank you for sharing that. And I would agree with you on the optimism. And thank you also for reminding us how important it is to get out of the building and to actually go to meet clients and to go where everything actually happens and to balance the perspective you'll get from all the online work that you're doing. 

Greg, it really hurts me, but we've come to the end of our conversation today, and I always have this one question that I love to ask. And Greg, what I'll ask you is who in the world of insights would you love to have lunch with?

Greg - 00:27:33:

Yeah, I've been thinking about that question because, again, I've heard a few of your episodes already. I guess it came back to truly, I would love to have lunch with anyone. Anyone who would want to have lunch with me. 

I really enjoy learning something from somebody new, and everybody has something to share, something to spark an idea in me or take me in a new direction. 

To build on that last point, because I think it's connected to this question: I look for people when we're hiring or when we're looking for partners who have a breadth of experience that could be through education, that could be through travel, that could be through hobbies, that could be through past experience. And that's what I would enjoy, just getting to know somebody at random, understanding their path, their journey, why they made the choices they did, and what they think about the future. So lots of opportunity there.

Thor - 00:28:32:

And if I come to Toronto, I might just ping you and we might have lunch. Who knows?

Greg - 00:28:37:

Perfect. I'm looking forward to that, Thor. Yeah.

Summary

Thor - 00:28:39:

Greg, this has been such a fascinating conversation. I've loved hearing about the variety of ways you've leveraged and applied insights throughout your career. Playing some of it back to you: I love the way you describe that an insight is something that makes you either think, feel or act differently, and that very often the industry is probably a bit too rigid. 

And although it's an evolving definition, you yourself keep it simple, keep it focused on what the organization really needs. Good insights help people. It enables organizational alignments. It provides a single source of truth, providing direction. 

And for all of us struggling to elevate the role of insights internally, I think we need to be reminded about what you said, Greg, which is that the worst thing that could happen to an insights team is that we become too insular. As insights leaders, we need to be part of the business. We need to understand the frontlines, we need to understand the supply chain, and the opportunity for the company in the future. 

And in terms of advice on how to do that, you told us that getting there will require a lot of communication. A lot of it is focused on providing the right value that comes with conversations. Curious and collaborative approaches are key to make this possible. Demonstrate that you care about the business. Show that you are passionate while remaining selectively ambitious. Work with the people that are open to working with you. 

And when looking at the future, remember, our business is more important than ever. Insights are more important than ever. 

Greg, I know that I've learned a lot from talking with you today, and I'm sure our audience has as well. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Greg - 00:30:32:

Great, Thor. Really appreciate it. And I enjoyed it. Thanks very much.