In this episode of the Consumer Insights Podcast, Thor is joined by Jascina Simeon, Global Head of Consumer Insights and Customer Experience.

“Are we asking the right questions? Are we asking the right people? Are we asking in the right context and at the right time?”

In this episode, we are joined by Global Head of Consumer Insights and Customer Experience Jascina Simeon who firmly believes that consumers do know what they want, as long as insights professionals are asking the right questions and using the precise methodologies. 

We also discuss: 

• How context and external factors are crucial to understanding changes in consumer behavior
• Why insights professionals need to go beyond demographics and have a grasp of generational differences and the challenges they pose
• The importance of being open, curious, and brave in the insights industry

You can access all episodes of the Consumer Insights Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Spreaker. Below, you'll find a lightly edited transcript of this episode.

Thor:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Consumer Insights podcast. Today, I'm excited to have an incredible insights leader joining me for what I know will be a wonderful conversation. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Jascina Simeon, an experienced head of insights and customer strategy with over 15 years of both brand side and agency side experience. Most recently, Jascina was Global Head of Insights at 888 | William Hill Group where she was responsible for providing the C-suite and leadership team with data and consumer-led actionable insights and enabling the business to step change the customer experience in a more competitive, digitalized world. Prior to William Hill Group, Jascina was Associate Director for Ipsos Connect, where she worked across a wide range of categories, including FMCG, finance, insurance, luxury goods, and entertainment. Thank you so much for joining me, Jascina.

Jascina Simeon:

Thank you. Thank you for the introduction and for the invite. Really excited to have this conversation today.

Introducing Jascina

Thor:

Now we are eager to get to know you. So could we start off with you taking a couple of minutes telling us about yourself and how you got to where you are today? How did it all start?

Jascina Simeon:

So really, I think based on curiosity and interest in consumers. So maybe a little bit about my background. I think I would explain also the curiosity and the adventurous part of my career. But I'm from South America. I studied, I was raised and born over there. Studied in the West Indies, went to France to do my master's degrees, did an exchange with the University of British Columbia in Vancouver and came back to Bordeaux when I was studying to complete my Masters in International Marketing.

And then decided to come in the UK for six months to improve my English and never went back. So this has been me here and loving everything like, you know, exposure to different culture, ways of thinking, how people react to certain things. And I think that's kind of like tied really well with my career right now and you know, working in insight and often I hear people saying like, you know, I studied philosophy or geography and there was an opportunity in a insight company and I started there and I'm like, no, no, no, I choose, I choose to be there. You know, I'm doing it to myself by choice. So that's very much my background I would say in a nutshell.

And as you mentioned, working across client side, agency side throughout my careers for different agencies, whether it's media, whether it's Ipsos, where I spent most of my agency career, but also worked a bit for the companies and then landed in the gambling industry with 888 | William Hill, which was my last experience.

Thor:

Now, I think you have such an interesting background that we are very eager to hear how that background brought you to your current definition of an insight. So how would you define an insight? And tell us how that definition has changed over the course of your career?

Jascina Simeon:

Yeah, I will say that for me, insight is beyond just a research piece, is beyond just having a set of questions, asking those questions and playing back the outcome of those. It's very much about understanding the context and the impact, understanding what we're trying to, you know, investigate and also taking in consideration the different contexts around those.

So it's not just what you ask in a survey that will give you the answer. This is part of the answer. There's also the expertise of your colleagues and stakeholders. There's the external factors. There's understanding the consumer's view and the world that they're living in and what is going to impact their decision making in choosing a brand or deciding to buy a product or using a service and so on. So I think all of those are really important in the definition of insight.

Now, how that has evolved throughout my career, I have seen it evolving. I feel like at the very beginning, it was a bit more structured at the beginning. It was very much the essence of having the right partner from an agency or a research manager or a research person, expert, who would ask the right questions, come back to you with the answer. And that might be used or not and the or not is really important as well.

We are often, and I've seen that in the industry I worked with, in some of the industries where the insight will be the secondary go-to, you know, for instance, it'll be like, we already know the industry very well. We know what we're doing. We may need some research to validate some points. And I will stop there.

Well, nowadays, there's more and more, it's so complex. Everything is going faster than it's ever been. I think if you take COVID-pre and post COVID is completely different, right? And all of a sudden you want to understand, you know, okay, what the consumers think, how is those things impacting? Because we haven't had time to look at trends. There's nothing that we know from before that will help us understand consumers now.

So that's the evolution of, I would say, you know, a few years back and nowadays. And now the world is more competitive. So you need to, you don't always have like the chance to do three, four, five errors. You really need to have as much information as you can to make your decisions. So then whatever you put out there works, or you have the ability to fix them quickly or quicker.

Thor:

Now in preparation for this episode, you shared that you really disagree with the idea that "consumers don't know". Can you share with us a bit more about what you exactly mean here?

Jascina Simeon:

Yeah, so I think that's a really like interesting one because and you see that more and more now, you know, where people are kind of challenging focus groups or qualitative or even insights in general. And for me, it's just reverting back to are we asking the right questions? Are we asking the right people? Are we asking in the right context? Are you asking the right time?

And, you know, like all of those elements are not always aligned. And then you turn up and say, well, they don't know. We asked them whether they liked that product. We worked on that product and we launched it and it did not work. Therefore consumers don't know.

And for me it's very much about, but are you asking the right people? Right? You know, it's like if you're going to launch a dishwasher and you decide that, okay, we're going to ask women only what they think about it. It's like, well, you kind of like missing a very big part of the of the population, you know, like men will also use dishwasher.

You know, so that's, those are like, you know, things where for me it's quite an easy way to explain sometimes failure, where you're just like, well, customers don't know research is not helping. You're just like, well, are we asking at the right time or are we using the insight at the right time? Sometimes people kind of like think, well, we can use those research, it's the same questions. Nothing changed. We asked those questions last year. Let's just like dig it out and work on it.

It's like, well, between last year and this year, a lot of things have changed. You have the cost of living, which is becoming like, you know, a big part of people's decision making. So my answer to the question might still remain, but the context of it will change. It might be like, you know, would you travel? I would love to travel, of course. But then there's like other impacts, but I do not have the time. I do not have the financial capacity and so on and digging into the context of the answer will give us what we need.

And the last thing for me is about the interpretation of the data. Sometimes you have like, well, we ask the customers and they say they really like it and therefore we go with that. And I was giving an example to your colleague last time where I think they were like, you know, studies done like a few years back and it was like testing some products, and it was in a focus group, and people were given the choice of different colors for an item and the old one for the bright item and then on their way out they were offered to pick up one of those items to go home with them. And they all picked, or most of them picked the black one and you're just like, well hold on a minute, you know, during the whole research you mentioned that you like the colorful bright one and then at the end of the day what we left with is the black one.

So it does not mean that they wouldn't have liked to have it. But then once you think, yeah, but in my context, or at home, or have kids, you know, of course I would love to have like a cream carpet or rug. That's what I would pick. But then at the end of the day, I'm going to take the gray one because once they put the chocolate on it and so on. So again, for me, it's like, it's not wrong. It's the way you interpret it and the way you observe. And sometimes the insight is not just based on what customers say, but also what they do and how we interpret it.

Thor:

So much experience in your answers. You also touched on the role that focus groups play in developing consumer understanding. What do you think are some of the common misconceptions surrounding focus groups? And if you can, could you share some stories and examples around this?

Jascina Simeon:

I think there's two answers to that. It's either the focus group is going to give you the answer, or the focus group is not going to give you the answer at all. And the first example I'll give you is thinking, okay, we're going to take, and that happened in my previous role, but with other clients when I were agency side, where people were just like, well, we have some advertising. and we're going to put them in front of the consumers and we want them to tell us which ones is going to work and how we're going to make it work.

And you're like, your consumers are not the experts. What they can tell you is how they're going to react to the advertising, but they're not going to be the one telling you what words you have to change within the script and so on. And this is where I think there's a misuse of focus groups. And the other is when people think focus group is not going to give you any answer. There's no point. We have the data. We know what people like. Let's go with it.

And I think that when you just focus on the quantitative aspect or just on your expertise, what you're missing is the wise and the deep diving of the reasons of certain behaviors. And that's what focus groups will allow you to do.

So in previous examples, for example, at William Hill, where we will do like really complex projects working really closely, for example, with the product team, where we'd be like, you know, identifying some ideas, doing some focus groups, then you have product that are going out, then we would carry on, and the focus group would always come back at some point within the development of the idea or the, you know, development of the product to kind of test and now what do customers think about it. And then test and trial, but carry on having these focus groups as part of it to then understand why did they use it that way? When they say, well, we don't like this, can you change it? And you change it, it's about the reiteration and using the consumers to validate certain point or to understand why they're using it or not.

Of a clear example, and I think what often brands and companies with a lot of data, like you see in transactional, where like gambling, financial institutions and so on. There's like so much data available and what we can identify is the what. What did people use? What did they pay for? What did they, you know, what did they not use and see the conversion rates dropping? What you don't have is the why, and the why is when you listen to customers. And it may be focus groups, it may be one to one session with the consumers. You may be like asking them to go through journeys and observing them or diary, but you just like making sure that you have a complex, complex and diverse way of approaching the inside to have the full picture.

Key insights on generational differences

Thor:

I love that. And if we switch topics for a second, and I know you're also very passionate about the importance of understanding generational differences between consumer groups. Now, what do you think are some of the most important things for insights leaders to understand about different generations?

Jascina Simeon:

Well, that first of all, there is a difference. You know, and often, I think, you know, you have like, I want to test something, let's look at men versus women. Let's look at, you know, your 18 to 24 versus 25 to 45 and so on. And to give you an example, in my previous team, I had like, you know, people across different ages. And you have like I remember having few conversations with two of my colleagues where one was like in the early 20s and the other one more the mid 20s.

And the one in the mid 20s will say, there's a difference between me and you know, it's like this is the pre and post, you know. And the way of approaching things is different.

Now, when you approach it from an expert point of view and from my perspective, for example, I would be okay so. Where is the difference? You're in your twenties. You might think the same way, you know, you have this same approach to technology and so on. But when you talk to them, there is like slight differences that if you are not aware of those, when you create services and products, you develop those. So you try to in that experience. If you're not aware of it, if you decide to ignore it and you, you know, going back to, the consumers was wrong because he did not tell me.

It's like, well, you ask a 29 year old you know, their point of view and you building a product that include 18. So 18 to 29, there's a big gap. They're still a younger group, but they don't think the same. And that's why for me, like, you know, being aware of the generational differences is very important.

The other thing also, especially for nowadays regeneration, while the gap in years is shorter, the experience or exposure to today's technologies and so on is bigger. You know, if I take my case, and I had that conversation with younger colleagues where they're like, how did that turn going to work every day? And I'm like, what do you mean? That's just been like pre -COVID, but you know, you work with people who just started working now and haven't been exposed to it.

Now they're more like, you know, in touch with technology and social media and so on. So when I think about social media, I would say, well, for me, it's Facebook, it's Instagram, you know, and then one of them said, like, yeah, for me, it's like WhatsApp. I'm like, how? And having this conversation and involving them, you know, as part of the building discussion guide, building questionnaire, building translation of the data is very important.

A clear example was working on a survey with one of my colleagues about consumers' behaviors and thinking about cost of living and wanted to understand the impact that that might have in their behavior. And I was like, okay, so we need to ask them how they or what is the, you know, essential spend versus what would be more luxurious or about entertainment. And, you know, a standard list that you will see across, you know, you have like your electricity bills or utility bills and your rent and going shopping and going out, restaurants and cinema.

And you're just like, yeah, we also need to add video games. I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, yeah, around September, that's when people go and buy video games. I'm like, who is people? And it's kind of like taking this in consideration because at the end of the day, again, I'm talking about like mid -20s. It's like, well, those are our consumers, and those are items that we didn't have to think before. People wouldn't think about that actually is also taking a piece of their spending and having people from across generation contributing or bringing their own views helps you having a survey that's a bit more or a discussion guide or has a bit more, you know, more exhaustive in terms of what you're asking, having the context and making sure that you therefore understand the people, the audience that you're targeting, the audience that you're talking to.

And I revert back to your first question about, you know, focus groups being wrong or people, consumers being wrong. It's like, well, if you did not ask them about those questions and now they're not going to buy your product around September because now they're going, buying the new video games, then it's not them being wrong. It's you not understanding the context and the seasonality and so on. 

Thor:

I think that as a common theme for many of the answers you've given, it's like, you always go back to yourself and it's like, yes, but what could I do better? You know, it's ultimately, it's just, don't blame the outcome, look at what you could have done better to get you to a better outcome. Now, I think you've given us some advice there in terms of how to think about, you know, the people that actually help influence and inform how you go about. Staying on the same topic, are there any pitfalls or challenges that you think insights leaders should be aware of when trying to work this way?

Jascina Simeon:

Yeah, I think maybe the first one is sometimes you either think or you're put in a situation where you are the gatekeeper of the insight of the data and the results and the interpretation where actually you shouldn't be.

It should very much always be a collaboration. It should always be an expanding, you know, who is involved in how we see the data, what the recommendations look like, how the questions are being asked, and kind of like mixing the expertise across the board.

If you work with the product team, then it's asking them about the question that you're writing. Is it the right terminology? Are they the right questions? And then you translate it to make it more digestible for the participants. Because at the end of the day, that's how our expertise to know how to ask unbiased questions the right way and so on.

And then I think the other thing is thinking that your traditional methodologies are the more robust, stronger ones that you should go for while you need to adjust to nowadays consumption. Like if you want to interview or get surveys amongst your 18 to 24, a 30 minute questionnaire, is not going to cut it. Right? Like, you know, sending them a link is not going to cut it.

It's just like, you know, adjusting to their own consumption and understanding their world to be able to ask it in the right way at the right time, using the right methodologies and being very open to the unknown. And one of the pitfalls is around, for example, AI where it's just like, yeah, but it's not gonna replace, it's not gonna be, you know, we're far from it. It's like, no, no, we're right into it. And it's more about the quicker you adapt it, the quicker you see how it can be used, but understanding the challenges of it and, you know, how you're gonna maximize it is the right approach. 

The importance of context and external factors

Thor:

And when we were preparing for this episode, you also mentioned that you see it as crucial to take into account external factors and the impact they have on the consumers. And you've brought this episode also talked about context, right? But could you tell us a bit more on how you see this being so important and are there any external factors you see as particularly relevant right now?

Jascina Simeon:

Yes, I think especially now where things are kind of like volatile, extremely volatile, you know, coming from a geopolitical perspective or political perspective, you know, when you see like all the conflicts around the world, this does have an impact, even if it doesn't happen on our soil, it does have an impact on us, you know, we've seen it with the war in Ukraine, we see it with the wars in Congo, we see it, you know, with what's happening in Israel and Palestine.

And I feel like all of this has an impact on how people think, where and who they are more likely to consume, you know, their perception of certain brands. And the cost of living in the UK, the inflation rate is having an impact on people, you know, how much they can spend or not. The fact that you have more and more companies doing lay-offs throughout months and months.

And just like all of this is impacting people's confidence in the future, confidence in what's going to happen in the next six months, confidence in the politics and decision makers and so on. And if you're not aware of that, then you just remain in your little bubble and just think about your own industry, but don't look at how people are consuming it.

So it could be like right now within your industry, there's not much changes but there may be some kind of like domino effect and you need to understand how this is impacting other areas. At the end of the day, customers are consumers. So they may be your current customers or your potential customers and you look at them within your own context, within your own industry, are they going to be able to, are they going to use that product when they're gambling? Are they going to spend that money for the next euros? Are they going to buy this product in the shop and so on?

And you just focus on that, but looking at like, but if they were to earn less, where are they more likely to spend less money on? And kind of like understanding what the bigger picture is going to have on your consumers in general is very important.

Now, the other thing also is not to feel that, I've checked this last year and therefore I know. Unfortunately, what we've seen that things change rapidly and even more so now that it might have had five years ago. Now, every six months is a change when you think about the Bank of England and the inflation rate, you know. Every three months I'm checking what's gonna happen to my mortgage, right? It's just like, and you know, it's very like short term action that's gonna have an impact on your longer term decisions. And you always have like to check yourself, check your decision. And what you thought was true before was, but might not be now. So it's just like being aware of those and taking them into consideration in your decision making.

Thor:

I think that's a brilliant answer, but I think that people might be aware of that importance, the need of this, but what do you think are some of the common mistakes that insights leaders make when trying to view the bigger picture?

Jascina Simeon:

I think sometimes it's thinking that we know what the future looks like. Unfortunately, we don't. So you're going to have to make decisions and you're going to, you know, and what will happen will happen, right? You can only make the decision with what is currently available or what, you know, you have access to or the way you can forecast the future. So that's one way.

I think the other thing is maybe like going back to my previous point is just focusing on your own industry you very much need to look at what's happening in other industries and how you take the learnings.

And then the last thing is about technology. I've been thinking that it will take longer than we think. It might take longer, but it might get even faster. So it's kind of like, you know, how do we absorb it? And also how do we adopt and have a behavior that can allow us to be flexible, to be curious, to have a quick adaptability to what's going to happen. You don't know what's going to happen, but you need to have this ability to change and flex over time for when and how things happen.

Shaping the future of insights

Thor:

And if we look ahead, what opportunities do you think there are for insights professionals to make true business impact? What can they do to challenge the status quo?

Jascina Simeon:

I think it's first of all is about the curiosity. We have the mandate and the license to go and, you know, discover and trial and test and get learnings across, you know, like talk to other leaders or other people, right, to understand. You have that license to bring back those insights to the business.

I think for me also the insight is not just about research or market research, the insight is across. It's within your financial results. It's within your data analytics and your consumer data and the way that people react to product is also within the expertise across the business. And it's kind of like being more open to what that means and this holistic approach and view more than thinking the expertise remain within a traditional insight team.

The other thing is around AI, where I feel like, you know, anything around machine learning, AI is kind of like taking it as a positive, taking it as a added value to the insights, like, you know, how can we use it so we can code verbatims quicker, get sentiments faster, you know, being able to dig into loads and loads of, you know, feedbacks from customers and get the themes through quicker appreciating that your confidence in the data, while you would tend to go for 95, 100 percent, well, would a 90 percent or 85 percent be good enough with the decision making and bearing this in mind when you communicate this data back or when you take this in consideration?

Thor:

Now, I think you've shared some really insightful learnings with us today. But if you had to summarize, what's the one big takeaway you want listeners to get from this episode?

Jascina Simeon:

I think the first one is being open and being curious. It's kind of like, that's what insight is about. It's about being able to discover and being open to what the outcome looks like. It's putting your ego aside and literally listening. I think this is very important, the listening part and the ability to translate the information in a certain way that would be digestible, but also being able to bond back on some ideas or being able to go back and validate on health.

And be brave, I would say, you know, like right now, it's the time to be brave and bold and just go for it and bring this insight, which is so much, you know, research and asked now and people are relying on it because they don't know anymore. I decided this last year, can't do it now, I need insight, what's next? It's literally, it's the time to bring insight to life and make it really actionable.

An insightful lunch

Thor:

Thank you. Now, as we've come to the very end of this recording, I have a question I keep on asking. I'm really curious to hear your answer on, which is who in the world of insights would you love to have lunch with?

Jascina Simeon:

I think that was like a really good question. I'm like, is there one person? At the end of the day..

I think no, the dinner will make more sense if you are like few people in the room. I just feel like, you know, you need to have different experts.

You know, we talked about, you know, differences in generation. We talked about differences in way of looking at the data and so on. And I very much think that, you know, your experts should come from different backgrounds and age and ways of seeing things to have that debate.

So I wouldn't have like specific names, but I just think like, you know, you need few people at the table to have like a proper debate and be able to move forward. That one person might agree or disagree with me or might just like, yeah, I validate your point. But I think when you have few people, you come out with more learning. So that's, that's the best dinner party, I think.

Thor:

That sounds like an engaging conversation. So very much very curious on very curious on that one. Wow. This has been such a fantastic conversation, Jascina. Your perspective on insights is truly unique and I think we can all learn from it.

Now, before we end today's episode, I'd love to return to some of the moments of our conversation that have really stuck with me. When talking about the definition of an insight, you told us that it's beyond a research piece, it's about understanding the context, the impact, taking into consideration the different context elements around those.

A true insight captures the expertise of your colleagues, your understanding of the world and what's important to the consumer in making their decisions. You also told us to always ask yourself, are we asking the right questions? Are the questions asked in the right context? Are you asking the right people?

When we talked about focus groups, you reminded us to ensure that we have the right expectations. As an example, the consumers will be able to tell you how they will react on an ad campaign you are working on, but they will not be able to tell you how to adapt that very same ad campaign to trigger a different reaction.

Lastly, be open, be curious. Remember that it's what insights are all about. Put your ego aside and listen. Be brave, and do what you believe is necessary to bring insights to life in an actionable way. Now, I know I have learned a lot from talking to you today, and I'm sure our audience has as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

Jascina Simeon:

Thank you very much. I really enjoyed that.