In this episode of the Consumer Insights Podcast, Thor is joined by Matt Thell, Global Strategy and Innovation Leader at General Mills

“Insights without actions are just fun facts.” But how do you ensure your insights translate into real-world impact?

Generating insights without a practical application often limits their ability to leverage tangible results and meet business objectives.

In this episode, Matt Thell, Global Strategy and Innovation Leader at General Mills, shares the key steps to turn insights into action through a structured process that involves analysis, communal knowledge, hierarchization and empathy.

We also discuss:

• The i3 process to achieve innovation
• How to differentiate problems from opportunities—and how it drastically changes the approach you should take
• The importance of building empathy inside the organization to create context-sensitive solutions

You can access all episodes of the Consumer Insights Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Spreaker. Below, you'll find a lightly edited transcript of this episode.

Thor:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Consumer Insights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to have an incredible insights leader joining me for what I know will be an engaging conversation. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Matt Thao, Global Strategy and Innovation Leader at General Mills. Matt has been a CPG strategy and innovation leader for more than 20 years and he's currently part of the iSquad, an internal strategic consultancy operating exclusively within General Mills. He's worked across almost all General Mills brands to drive growth for the company through the creation and implementation of long-term core and new product portfolio strategy. Thank you so much for joining me, Matt.

Matt:

Thank you, Thor. Excited to chat, tell a few stories, have some fun.

Meet Matt

Thor:

Awesome. So could you take a couple of minutes to tell us about yourself, your role, and how you got to where you are today? How did it all begin?

Matt:

Yeah, what's my origin story? So I've been at General Mills for my entire adult working experience, which I think is kind of atypical.

For about like three-quarters of that, I've been in, I think, a unique group. It's called the iSquad. The name was actually cool about 23 years ago when we started, right? Like not everyone had put 'I' in front of it.

I think the iPod was just brand new. But we are an internal strategic consultancy. So we've evolved a bit over time. But you know, we do a combination of business strategy and innovation strategy. So like if McKinsey and Ideo had a baby, that might be us. We basically work on helping out the individual brands and the enterprise. So on the brand side, you know, when there are problems, when a business sees an opportunity, so like, you know, maybe something is in decline, or maybe we see an opportunity for like old. If there's a gnarly question that no one's been able to answer, like, why don't teens like better-for-you products? That's where we might step in there.

And then on the enterprise level, we're part of a bigger group called Disruptive Growth, cool name. It's got our venture capital arm. It's got some small-scale acquisition stuff. It's got co-founders who are like little pods of two and three people that act like startups internally. So there, we basically help these groups in different ways. So we recently made an acquisition in the pet supplement space. So we did like how to win in pet supplements as we were kind of like looking into that area or with like the co-founder teams, those little startup guys. We've done something before called like the big human problems of food. So we help them pick a space, right? Like, are you interested in dinner fatigue or picky kids or restrictive diets? I think our group works well because we have a little bit of higher tenure in the company, which is nice. We're part of the big machine, but we're not really orbiting that so we can look across. At General Mills, we have a big portfolio, right? People rotate, so it's nice to have a consistent external but internal vested party.

Defining insight

Thor:

That's great. And now this is the Consumer Insights Podcast. So of course, we're always curious to hear how you would define an insight. How would you do that? And tell us if that definition has changed over the course of your career.

Matt:

Oh, the insight question. All right, I don't know about you, but I've seen tons of people argue, like, what is the official definition of an insight? We've tried to do it ourselves internally. We've tried to codify it and be like, oh, it's deep intuitive understanding. It must contain a tension. It must have a tension in there. And I'd say I'm more of a gray area person. So I'm less concerned about like the official static definition.

For me, it's basically like, what does an insight get me? Like, how can I use it to align the team, to grow a business, to fix a problem? So like, if I had to give a definition, I'd say it's something like, it's an unlock, right? It's an unlock that enables me to do something better than what's being done.

So I guess when we talk to teams about it, because basically we work through teams, like we're a small group. There's a couple of us, we bounce in, we help a team that's trying to solve a problem. I always tell them to like listen for three things whenever they're presented with stimulus. That's like, is it interesting? Is it surprising? Or is it affirming? So like interesting, you know, does it catch my attention? Or surprising, you know, is it something unexpected that I didn't know? Or affirming, it's like, okay, I knew that and I believe it's important to what we're doing. So, you know. They might not fall under like the traditional definition, but I know that it's something that could be useful and I can do something with it.

Thor:

I love that. And when we were preparing for this episode, you mentioned something along the lines of insights without actions or just facts. Can you tell us how you came to that belief?

Matt:

Yeah, and insights without action are just fun facts. Everyone likes a pithy one-liner, right? Like it's good sticky language and it can, I don't know, prompt discussion. I think for me, it comes from, like originally I was an engineer, right? Like I was a chemical engineer for the very early part of my career. And the thing that I liked about engineering was that it's not a pure science, right? It is the practical application of a science. So insights without action are fun facts. It kind of comes from that because to me, I'm always thinking about like, what is the practical application of this insight going to be, right? Like, I think something that kind of highlights this is like, kind of like how and why my group does what it does. So we have, we have the luxury of taking a bit of time, right? Where you are not bound to P and L.

We don't have to like have specific business results on a quarterly basis. So we can, we can go deep, right? We can dig into a topic, interesting aspects, things of a category. We can follow random leads down rabbit holes. But in the end, I need to connect that back, whatever we've learned to something that's going to help pizza rolls or help gushers. Otherwise, it doesn't matter because we're not academics. I'm not about theoretical. I'm not publishing papers. Those are great. And they're super useful. And we use them. Don't get me wrong. Love my academic friends. But if I'm spending a bunch of time learning about a topic like joy, right? I need to create a framework. I need to do something that applies it to the business. So like an example would be, you know, did a ton of research around like decision-making and impulse and first moment of truth and all these things, you know, at the shelf. And there's a lot of smart people on the topic. I know we spoke to behavioral scientists and experts in gaming and fashion and like dating apps, super fascinating dating apps. And learned about the lizard brain and system one versus system two thinking, which is all super cool. But like some of the things we learned, right? Like, okay.

The average person when they're in the grocery store reads like seven words on a trip. Okay. Now that varies depending on where they're in their lives. If they're like reconsidering a diet or had some sort of change that might change, but like seven words per trip, we also know that they buy like 15 items per trip. You know, so if you're, if you do the math, that's like half a word per package or per item. So back to the contract, that's surprising. I would have thought it was greater. We also found that you have basically five seconds to capture people's attention and they stand about five feet away from the grocery shelf. Okay, yeah, I kind of knew that. That's my affirming. And we also learned that people process things when they look at stuff in order of colors, symbols, numbers, words. Okay, that's individually. That's interesting. So on their own like, they're fun facts, right? You can slip them into conversation, might try and impress someone at a dinner party. Like, they're just kind of like cool things. But like, together with like a structure, like, I can turn that into like an approach for like Haagen-Dazs, right? If I'm trying to figure out their hierarchy of communication when it comes to packaging design. Like, I know the burgundy color means something. I know that the cartouche, that's our like symbol, has like some prominence. If it's important that I communicate that's made in France, like maybe I do that with a picture of the flag of France, as opposed to like putting in words because I know words are less important. So like all these things kind of come together where I take those things that might be fun facts on their own to actually figure out how do you combine them and apply them.

Thor:

Let's build on that because I really love this, what you're going into. And when it comes to turning insights into actions, from your perspective, what are the steps to take? What's step one? What's step two?

Matt:

Yeah, I mean the biggest thing. The biggest thing I do is I make sure that no matter what kind of like stimulus you're exposing people to is that we always kind of follow a similar process. So you know, I told you about the interesting surprising affirming thing. Like that's one thing you had a form of stimulus that came in and now you are thinking about it in that structured way. The second thing that we do is afterwards we always talk directly with the team and have them talk together to get that communal knowledge right? Like I want to know what's important to you, and then I want to know what's important to everyone else, and I want everyone to know that, right? So the idea of, you know, we bring people together, they can leave their normal job, they can focus on a specific area, you gain that communal knowledge, everyone knows what everyone else knows. And then, and then that makes it easier for alignment. So that's kind of like step two. Step three, I'd say is, and this is this is probably most important. We have this thing that we call the we should statement, right? So this is this is our capture device. Um, it's basically it's a sheet of paper or if we're doing online, you know, it's a, the template and it says we should do, and then you fill in whatever that thing is because for whatever that reason is. So it's like a hypothesis. It might not be right at the end, but in that moment, based on what you saw, it feels right to you and these we should start there. They're the DNA of our process, right? Like it is, it is the building blocks. It immediately forces people to take what they just heard and convert it into an action. So, when we talk to teams about this, we use the analogy of like pointillism in art. So think about like a beautiful Serat painting, right? We show them a big closeup of all the dots and you can't quite tell what it is. I don't know what it is. And then you scroll out and you're like, oh, that's a face of a monkey. And it's in this Serat painting. We say like the we shoulds are the dots and we're gonna spend all our time kind of like creating those dots. So in the end, we can bring them together, we can group them, and we can look for patterns because the patterns are the thing that's like, the strategy emerges from the details. Those are the details, the strategy, when kind of like comes together and coalesces, like that's what we're looking for. I joke that our superpower is basically what we can do is we can group similar things into boxes and we can name those boxes, right? Like it sounds very unchallenging, but it's basically this kind of like taxonomical process that we do that helps us start to see potential things that could be useful.

Turning insights into actions

Thor:

I absolutely love that. And how could, because I know a lot of listeners might get really excited wanting to apply some of the advice you've shared. How could someone trying to follow your advice on turning insights into actions easily get it wrong? And what are some of the warning signs that would be telling that was going on?

Matt:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. I got a good story for this one. So we were researching, I guess, the shorthand of what I'll say, it was called the demonization of wheat. So we're General Mills. We make bread, we make cereal, we have lots of things that have wheat in them. And this was during a time when the grain of wheat was not so well thought of. So we wanted to understand why. So we're doing in homes. I was in San Francisco and I was observing. We spent like two plus hours with this woman, right? We're hanging out in her apartment. We're talking about everything that she hated about wheat. Like we just kind of like heard over and over again about all these things. And often like what we do, you know, kind of like when we're done, we're like, okay, like let's take a look at your pantry. Like, let's see what's going on. And as we're looking around, we asked her to pull out her three favorite grain products, right? Like tell us about these three grains that you like. So first thing she pulls out is quinoa like, okay, quinoa, you know, that's expected, right? Like, what do you like about quinoa? Oh, it's got great texture, it's versatile, it's got protein, like, okay, great quinoa. The second one she pulls out is farro, and the third one she pulls out is bulgur, okay? So if you are familiar with grains, you might know where this is going. Don't worry, I'll get there if you're not. But basically, you know, okay, so we talk about the quinoa, and we get to the second one, we get to the farro, and I'm kind of like looking around at those that are with me. And, you know, when you think about consumer work, you know, we don't question respondents' beliefs, right? Like that's not what we're there for. We're not there to insert our thoughts. I'm there to learn. Like I want to know what you think and why. Like that's what's important to me. And as I'm looking around, I see one of the researchers that's there with me, not a General Mills person. That's my caveat there. They were newer. They're from a scientific background.

And I can see them starting to get uncomfortable because this woman has just told us that she hates wheat, and then the second thing she pulls out is farro. And so before I can interject, this person asks the woman to turn the box over and to read the ingredients. And the woman turns the box over, and she's like, farro, wheat. Huh. OK, well, I mean, it says wheat, but it's different. It's not really wheat. I'm like, OK, fine. Let's move on. And then before I can even recover. The same person asked them, she's like, okay, do that again with bulgur. Just do that, just check out the bulgur. So she pulls out the bulgur and she looks at it and it's like, bulgur. Wheat. Well, my friend told me it's good and my friend knows that I don't eat wheat, so whatever. And like, clearly interviews over, right? Like I know like she has shut down, like, this is not good. We politely excuse ourselves, go to the car, we talk through what's wrong. So then later. Like I'm looking through the we shoulds, right? So this is our process. I'm looking through the we shoulds and I saw things like, you know, we should label with big letters on the front, wheat, or we should use the word wheat in the name because consumers are confused by atypical names and are more interested in the benefits of the grain that it provides, right? So the trip up in this case, and what some people might do would be like to give too much credit to that we should part, right? That front thing what we should do because I've talked about like, you know..

Words are less important. Putting big things, a "Wheat" on there, that's probably not the thing to do. But the because there was pretty good, right? Consumers are confused by atypical names. They're more interested in benefits that the grain provides.

That's pretty good, right? So sometimes you actually care more about the why in it than the what, right? In this case, the proposed action, it wasn't so great, but the actions I could take as a result of the why was actually pretty good. So like that's one trip up. I mean, I'll also say that, you know, whenever we sort we should, we always have a pile titled TBU. TBU means true but useless, right? Like not every thing that comes through is going to be gold. So you have to also realize that just because someone says we should do something doesn't necessarily mean that we should actually do that thing.

Thor:

I absolutely love this story. Now my understanding is that a sticking point of yours is the idea that there's always needs to be a problem to solve. So could you share a bit more on what you mean here?

Matt:

Yeah, the problem mentality. I mean, many times as strategists and innovators, we get stuck in this problem mindset. What is the problem to be solved? What is the barrier to overcome? How can I fix this issue for the consumer? It's who we are, right? It's, we like good messy problems to unravel and solving problem is a thing. Legitimately, it's a thing. However, like I'd say the issue is, is that sometimes the topics that we're asked to tackle are poorly served by treating the solution as a problem to be solved.

Thor: Do you have any examples that could illustrate this?

Matt:

Okay, so previously I talked about how, you know, study this concept of joy. Guess what? Joy is not a problem, okay? Like, it's a true, funny, it took us a long time to get there. Even worse, when you try and make joy a problem, you get led down some really weird paths, okay? So like I said, you know, I was working on this thing, big human problems of food, all these different things, dinner fatigue, picky kids and restrictive diets. And it's a broad topic. It's varied. There are big human problems of food. And at one point, we were asked by someone who was important, like, where is Joy? And I told him exactly what I told you. I was like, oh, Joy's not a problem. But then the response we got was like, try a little harder to make it fit. OK, so I'm a good worker. I like a challenge. So I go back and you know, try and like ultimately what I come up with is this idea of happiness deficit. And it is as ridiculous as it sounds, right? Like in the process of trying to make joy fit into this problem mindset, I made it like the least joyful thing ever. Right. So that is a way that I think, you know, you have to think about, you know, how do I approach this? Is it a problem thing or might be something else?

Thor:

I think this is a really powerful way of looking at it. But what do you think that insights teams should do instead?

Matt:

Yeah, I mean, okay, to be clear, like we are a jobs theory group. Like, like we love jobs theory as a tool. Like we've created amazing jobs maps. We've made frameworks on every topic you can think of when it comes to being useful to a food company, right? So we're there. And I know at the heart of like jobs is the idea that you're hiring a product to do something. And often that involves like solving a problem. So like super cool, right? Like I said, I was a gray guy, right? This, this is the gray area. Yes. Problems are a thing. That's cool. But what I'd say is in a lot of these areas where we have jobs maps, we've started to, for the areas where we're thinking, OK, maybe it's not a problem thing, we've started to ladder them up a little bit and to just, we call them opportunity areas. If I was being all Pollyanna-like about it, I might say these are the bright side compared to the shadow side. So for Joy, we have areas like connection, and exploration, and fun. So there's a shadow side, right? There's isolation and stagnation and gravity, right? They're all real, they're heavy things. But what we found by like approaching it from like this opportunity angle, it leads to different results. The example I give teams is like, okay, like let's say you were dealing with, let's say you took the approach of like with ice cream deprivation, right? Like people don't wanna be deprived of ice cream. I would say the opposite of that, the bright side, the opportunity might be abundance. So if you start with deprivation in ice cream, you might get Halo Top, which is a great product. If you start with abundance, you might get something like Ben and Jerry's that has the core of fudge. Two things, different sides of the coin, depending on your approach, you're probably gonna come up with different solutions.

Thor:

Absolutely. I love it. Building has been a recurring topic on this podcast. And I know it's also something you spend a lot of time thinking about. From your perspective, why is building empathy so important?

Matt:

Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing, like I tell the teams that we work with is that we are not always our consumer. So we have a huge portfolio at General Mills, both the US, it's across the world. Like many companies, we've got a rotational culture, so people move from brand to brand. So there's a chance that if I'm working on Trix cereal, I might not eat Trix cereal on a weekly basis. Or maybe I have like blue buffalo treats as part of my responsibility. I might have a cat, but I might not have a dog, right? So it doesn't mean that you can't do your job well. It just means that your relationship with the product is different than those of your super fans. So the example that I give is like, you know, I often say like, people who work for Harley most often drive a Harley motorcycle, right? If you're a founder of like some sort of product, you've probably lived and breathed that product for a long time. You know your people intimately. We just talked about pet supplements. We like just acquired a pet supplements company called Farah pet and like even though like I got cat Love my cat. My cat's great spend a lot of time thinking about my cat I will probably never know that supplement space as intimately and those people as dr. Michelle and Emily do

Thor:

Okay, I got it. Now, why do you think Insight's team struggle with this?

Matt:

Yeah, I think in types, insights teams struggle because they think that they actually have to get to the state of empathy. Okay. And, and I know we use it as a shorthand and I think that's fine, but like true empathy is like really hard. Like that, that's like deep stuff. So like when, when we frame things for teams, the way we talk about it as well, like there are, there are four ways of knowing, right?

First way of knowing is oblivion, right? You're not even aware of something. You can't have a feeling because you don't know it exists. Okay, that's way of knowing one.

Way of knowing two is awareness. So this is, I know it exists, but it doesn't really pertain to me, right? Like it doesn't matter. Like the difficulty or the trip up here, the watch out is like sometimes that can go into pity, which is really bad, right? So you got oblivion, you got awareness.

The next one is sympathy, right? I recognize your feelings and I value them. Okay, like that's good. And then what we say is the last one, the last one is empathy, right? I feel what you are feeling. So like the way we describe this when we're working with teams is like, if you've ever cried during a movie, right? That is not you that that's happening to, right? You are not in that experience, but like you are legitimately feeling their feeling, right? That is empathy. And that's hard.

So for me, like what I do is I was like, as teams, I don't give them this lofty gold empathy. I was like, I just want to move you along this ladder a little bit, right? I want to take you from one place and hopefully get you to another place. The example that I'll give is, so we were doing a project on heart health, right? Heart health is, it's a very sensitive topic, right? Like a lot of people, it has dramatic effects on their lives. So we're being very kind of like mindful and cautious how we're doing the interaction. And one of the people that we were talking to, he basically said, just kind of condensing here, but he basically said, I smoke to help my heart. And I'm sitting there listening and I'm like, no, like, no, don't believe it. You are rationalizing a behavior that you don't like.

And so then he tells a story, right? The story is, you know, he lives with his wife, his daughter and her son just moved in with him. He is currently the only one working. He's got two jobs, right? He's got approximately 45 minutes to get from job one to job two. In that time, he's got to eat his food. He's got to get there. He knows that if he is more than 10 minutes late from job one, he will miss the bus to get to job two. He will be late. He will get docked. You get so many docks like you're out. Right? So this dude is like stressed. He's like, so I know that like, if I'm if there's any chance that I'm running late from running late, like I, I feel a physical pain in my chest. Like I feel it. It's tight. It hurts. He's like, "I have a cigarette and that tightness relaxes, that pain goes away." And I'm not gonna say that I got all the way to empathy, but I will say, I'm like, huh, okay. I can kind of understand better. I can get out of my place of like pitying this person and I can understand better how you, in that moment, feel that smoking helps your heart because the pain goes away and you're less stressed. Like that's a good thing. You are in a better state than where you were. So clearly it has helped.

Importance of empathy 

Thor:

And if, I mean, this is obviously a very powerful tool and we've talked about it you're on the podcast in the past, but how have you gone about trying to build empathy within your organization? How do you, how have you worked with your team on this?

Matt:

Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing we've done is basically we say we put people who can solve the problem in connection with the people who have the problem. Right. So now I've come back to problem. Remember I said I'm a great guy. So this time now we're talking problems and problems are okay. But basically what does that mean? Right. So we talked to lots of people as often as we can, interviews, product interactions, and prompt you sampling, store tests, selling all that kind of stuff. We do the interviewing ourselves, right. Like doesn't matter what your function is, doesn't matter who you are within the organization, if you are on that team, you're gonna talk to people. Yes, we probably sacrifice a little bit when it comes to having a seasoned moderator or something like that, or an external agency but I think in the end, what we gain is a lot more in terms of helping that team build empathy for whatever that is they're looking at.

Thor:

Now, I know that you have expertise guiding teams in both creating new to the world brands, as well as diagnosing and rectifying issues in iconic heritage brands. I'd love to dig into this a bit more. Are there any similarities in how you approach both of these types of initiatives?

Matt:

Yeah, I mean, the similarities are, we always follow the same process. It's called the I3 process. So our founder, the guy who started us, was a super smart PhD statistician named Steve Ferenholtz. And he basically saw this opportunity for our company to do innovation better. So he goes out, he studies like adult learning, which is really important because we're basically treating this as a learning situation at a company. He studies things like creative problem solving and he comes up with this process. So I3 is immersion, interaction and ideation. So immersion like this is all about this is all about getting your head smart All right You talk to experts you dig into the data and you look for differences that matter you build first-hand empathy You know you look at what's being said about this space both in mainstream or maybe like in academia So that's getting your head smart immersion Immersion getting your head smart interaction like this is getting your heart smart, right? So this is talking to all those people in all the ways that we've we talked about and then we say only once you've done this you actually earn the right to come up with an idea. Otherwise, you're just kind of throwing stuff at a wall. Like you don't have the grounding that you need.

Matt's favorite brand to work on

Thor:

Do you have any favorite brand that you've worked on?

Matt:

Oh yeah, I mean we got some great brands.

So let's see, I'll give you two. Hopefully I can have two. So Haagen-Dazs, right? So it's one of our few premium brands, which makes it kind of like unique and different to work with.

It's probably our most global brand, which makes it fun to try like figure out, you know, what needs to be consistent and what can be variable. I'd say like the number of interviews and the most fun ones that I've done have been in like tiny apartments with way too many people eating a bunch of ice cream, right? And if you're in France, they crack out the wine. So that's just even better.

And then the second one I'd say is gushers. So they're delicious, but also it was probably one of my more formative experiences like earlier in my career.

So visiting the plants that makes gushers and one of the operators who was working on the line like heard about my love of this. And so he got my attention. He like motions me over and he showed me what I'm calling like the magical spigot. Right? So he turns it on and out of it comes like this thick, warm rope of the outside material of the gushers. And so he like cuts off this piece and he hands it to me and I like ball it up like an apple and I just take a bite out of it. And man, like that was food joy.

Thor: Oh man, that sounds wonderful. I think you've shared some really insightful learnings with us today. If you had to summarize, what's the one big takeaway you want listeners to get from this episode?

Matt:

Just one? I mean, I've been so insightful. Like how can I distill it down? No, okay. Thank you. All right, this is where I have to like come up with something pithy and succinct and like wrap all my meandering ramblings up in a nice little package. So, all right, I would say talk to a lot of people, right? Experts, consumers, whoever, look for the differences that matter and then do something with it. And then...

I'll kind of like add on there. So like, once you think you have something, go and talk to more people. So I like to identify the people around me who I say trade in the commodity of ideas, right? Like these are the folks that are super receptive, they'll bounce things off you. So I say, you know, ideas are like clothes, right? You need to try them on, you need to wear around a bit, you need to see how they fit, you need to maybe make some alterations. And then importantly, you know, like any clothes, you go and you ask people like, how does it look? Right? Like the people who you trust and people you care about, and they'll tell you the bits that are good, right? They'll help you optimize them. They'll tell you the parts that are crap, and they'll tell you to like get rid of them. So when it comes down to like kind of like, oh, here's the big reveal, like you know that you have a solid base and what you got is pretty good.

Thor: 

Wow, this has been such a fantastic conversation, Matt, your perspective on insights is truly unique. And I think we can all learn from it. I'd love to rewind and return to some of the moments of our conversation that have really stuck with me. When I asked you about the definition of an insight, you challenged me, you challenged us with a question. What does an insight give me? How can I use it to fix a problem? It's an, is an unlock that enables me to do something better than it's being done currently. Together with great structure, you can turn individual insights into great strategic decisions. The pattern highlighting the strategy will emerge from the details. Remember that we're not always our consumer. Building empathy is an important tool that offers us a way to bridge the gap between you and the consumer. And insights teams sometimes struggle with this. Because they think that they have to get to a state of pure empathy. In order to solve it, put people have the problem in connection with people who are looking to solve the problem, do the interviewing yourself. I know that I've learned a lot from talking to you today, and I'm sure our audience has as well. Thank you so much for joining me, Matt.

Matt:

Thank you. It was fun to chat.