Anticipating The Next Normal

In this episode of the Consumer Insights Podcast, Thor is joined by Michael Nevski, Director, Global Insights at Visa.

In a world where change is the only constant, adapting to a new normal falls short. Companies must anticipate the next normal to thrive, and insights are essential to achieve this. 

In this episode, Michael Nevski, Director, Global Insights at Visa, offers tangible strategies for insights leaders to help consumers navigate through economic stressors stemming from our dynamic world. He emphasizes the importance of communication, trust, community, and adaptation in facing next-normal scenarios from both the consumer and company perspectives.

We also discuss: 

• How to stop the insights function from being seen as a cost center
• Practical strategies for building brand trust with consumers
• What early adopters can teach us about GenAI's impacts on consumer behavior

You can access all episodes of the Consumer Insights Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Spreaker. Below, you'll find a lightly edited transcript of this episode.

Thor:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Consumer Insights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to have an amazing insights leader joining me for what I know will be a captivating conversation. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Michael Nevski, Director of Global Insights at Visa. As part of Visa's Business and Economic Insights team, Michael works closely with Visa's Chief Economist to oversee all consumer research initiatives adding a layer of consumer research, strategy, and analysis to Visa's economic output and forecasts. With over three decades of experience in marketing, market research, and client insights, he has worked with global financial, consumer products, manufacturing, and data companies. Michael also holds an MBA with a concentration in marketing from the University of Arizona. Thank you so much for joining me, Michael.

Michael:

Thank you, Thor. You're so, so kind – great introduction, and I'm thrilled to be here and have a conversation with the founder of one of the most prominent research companies I know, especially in the US, so excited to be here, thank you.

Meet Michael

Thor:

We're very excited to get to know you. And I think the audience would really appreciate if you could take a couple of minutes to tell about yourself, your role, and how you got to where you are today. How did it all begin?

Michael:

Thank you, Thor. The way how I started, I started my career in marketing and product and strategy. And initially, I built marketing automation platforms, including CRM, marketing automation tools. But at one point, about 10, 15 years ago, I was trained on how to conduct voice of the customer for working for a very heavy B2B manufacturing company, medical devices, dental devices, work quality devices. And it really triggered my interest about people, whether it's a business client or consumers, why they do what they do.

And I quickly realized that marketing research, like one of my colleagues says is a secret weapon, which helps companies to not only grow their businesses, but really identifying white spaces and next future steps, bringing those memorable experiences, bringing better products and services to their clients. And I really realized that this is the most interesting part of my career if I moved to marketing research, because this natural curiosity, why people do what they do when very often they say opposite, but their actual behavior indicates totally different from what they think they say. And that's how I transitioned to marketing research.

With that said, my role includes support for the global economics team. As you mentioned, in your introduction, I work with all five global regions, with chief economists. And the idea is to focus on consumer insights for me to really understand that next normal, next future development, whether it's a confrontational consumerism or Gen Z being a cohort, which brings that spending in the next 12 years to be spending growth, right? So as boomers are retiring or many other aspects of our lives. And the idea is to partner with my economics team to bring that analysis to our internal business partners and external clients like issuers, merchant banks, and merchants. So that's kind of a nutshell what I do on a daily basis. So, and with that said, again, market research to me is much more than just a career. It's like for many of us, it's a passion.

Thor:

And I love a lot of the things you said. And it reminds me of this book of Dan Ariely, right? The predictably irrational person. Now, if we, if we build and learn from your experience and how would you, with all that experience, with all that knowledge, how would you go about defining an insight and tell us if that definition has changed over the course of your career?

Michael:

That's a very good question. So, because definitely I start from the later, definitely definition has changed because when I started, it was more about bringing those insights. So marketing can activate often, but you would be like that servant, right? Here's the, project we want to, we want you to work on. Here's the ideas we consider. Please help us to execute deliver the results, and you go away.

Nowadays, and I'll give you the definition, my definition, but nowadays it requires much more than just bringing those results. It requires to become a strategic partner to your internal business partners. And it requires you to really help them to see the value of marketing research beyond just a cost center and help them to really action out those results, insights, I would say, results, insights you bring to the table.

It also requires you to build much more integrated relationship with your suppliers, like Apinio you represent, where you become integral part, and it's not like, "Thor, I have a project, help me to execute that again, so I can deliver that back to my business partners inside of the company."

It's more relying on Thor and his team to really say, "Michael, we identified this new space," or "We have this foresight, and I think that's where we need to focus. How about we build a strategic plan for the next year where we can, working together, more integrated, anticipating those needs by your business partners and your department, bringing that added value."

So and the last piece, I just want to say to me, insights, is not only about really bringing all of those aspects I mentioned about, but it's also really, again, having that strategic place or seat at the table where the organization realizes on insights as a kind of a hub or source of foresight and next steps for the company for developing in the future, that secret weapon, right? So that's how I see it.

Insights beyond a cost center

Thor:

And I love that. And when we were preparing for this episode, you really emphasized that market research and more broadly, the insights function as a whole shouldn't be seen as a cost center. Can you tell us how you came to that belief?

Michael:

Thank you. I'll give you that kind of an example where I really start realizing and learning that actually there is a way to show that kind of a value, right? So I was working for my previous company as a director of shopper marketing, working with syndicated panel data with one of  the leading, chicken meat manufacturing companies. And initially the relationship was that we buy your services, me representing the company, so we know how we're doing in terms of our product categories, product lines, where we sell, who we sell to, how often people buy. So it's kind of a necessary evil.

You guys give us some kind of insight into that and we buy that data, point of sales and panel data. But where I started realizing that you can change that attitude by working on this project where actually beyond just being more efficient and sell, sell more, sell, sell more again.

So I identified the white space with my team where actually we brought additional value by focusing on antibiotic and organic meats, chicken meats, and identifying the need by millennials back then who were consumer, Gen Z, excuse me, of now. So and need for individual packaging where we created pretty much the category. It was existing, but we really defined that category and helped the company to grow significantly their business in that category because of that focus on those needs, consumer needs and what it helped us in my case, I learned that attitude has changed from we just buying this insight because we need to, to really looking at us as strategic partner who helped him to build that foresight and grow business and really identify that next phase of their development. So that's my personal experience.

Thor:

And if we take that a step further, let's say that an insights leader is trying to influence others in the organization to stop seeing the insights function as a cost center, what should be their first step and why?

Michael:

Yes, very important question. Number one, and the very first step you need to educate and explain to your business partners and show that value you can bring to the table. Whether it's marketing, product, sales, not only say we do this, this and this, and we kind of provide the guardrails for your research or for your projects.

You're really educating them on why it's important to work with us as a function, what we can do for you as a business partner and show actually by, let's say, delivering the results of your research, but also helping them to action out those results, to execute those campaigns, to integrate that in the customer journeys or touch points.

And it's a very important first step. That's where your business partners start realizing, okay, maybe there is a value there, they're not just a necessary evil, like an expense. But they're really helping us to be more efficient, to be more productive, to be more successful in terms of building those relationships with our customers because they delivering those strategic insights, which I actually incorporate in our day-to-day work.

Thor:

And is there anything you think people can easily get wrong when taking on this endeavor? Is there anything you think people should watch out for?

Michael:

Oh, absolutely. If we're talking about my function, once you tell yourself, I know it all. I've done it all. I don't have that natural curiosity. I don't want to learn something new. That's number one wrong because you become very complacent. And once you become very complacent, your function can be quickly looked at as an obsolete, as something extra.

Number two, not only being humble learning but really providing that value, as I said. So even if you meet with your business partners and you're trying to educate them and trying to share, it's more about not being direct teacher, but being more of a sharing source where you feed that information and show value for examples instead of just telling them, "This is how you do it." So be humble about it, but also listen and learn. So you have two ears, one mouth. So that means you listen more than you talk. Although I talk more right now, all right, so because you're interviewing me, but that's the second factor.

And number three, really surround yourself with smart people, people who are smarter than you, people who are much more capable, people who you can learn from. While you can be a leader but you can rely on those and play by those skill sets and their strengths and passions on your team who can actually support you with different phases of your research or relationship with your business partners because somebody is very strong about third party data. Somebody can be very strong about the methodology max deep for conjoint. Or somebody is very good about the quant versus qual, right? Writing a discussion guides for ideas of focus groups. So those aspects are very important, but I think those three factors helps you to not only build successful and fruitful relationship within your large organization or small organization, but it helps you to build a relationship with the research community, with your suppliers and vendors, right? So to build that ecosystem and integrated system to really deliver value for your organization.

Brand trust in uncertain times

Thor:

Now you spoke at Quirk's Dallas earlier this year on building brand trust with consumers in an uncertain world. As part of that presentation, you explored a variety of stressors that consumers are currently facing. Can you tell us more about that? And are there any ones that you pay particular attention to?

Michael:

Yes, absolutely. One of the stressors that fear of people, which we probably and I as a professional working financial services pay attention a lot, that perceived notion that consumers worry or challenge that their investments, their savings might be reduced because of the high inflation.

And as we all know, inflation subsided in United States and around the world, but not to the point where federal authorities feel comfortable to start cutting those rates. And so people worry that, yes, my rate of return on my savings, not catching up with that inflation, so it eroding into my finances and that particular stressor needs to be alleviated.

I would say, or de-stressed by us as brands communicating with those consumers. Really understanding those stressors and educating them on what they can do better in terms of their finances, how they manage their finances, their spending, so, and be very open and transparent about that.

Another one, just to give you an example, it's a stressor about high inflationary environment. That means if I buy something of value now, it might lose that value a couple years down the road. And us as brands again, needs to have those relationships built with our clients, understanding those stressors, but also building that communication where we provide extended warranty, where we provide extended return, or maybe waiving some service fees, where are we showing them that we will be along with you along that journey. We're here to stay, and we're here to support those products and services you're buying from us. So even two years down the road, maybe like a, some kind of a free replacement or a special type of financing, right? So we can reduce the interest rates for that particular type of transaction. So again, we as brands needs to understand those and really focus on how we can alleviate, how we can build that trust, how we can engender that trust with our consumers.

Thor:

I love that! And you also share very practical strategies that brands can leverage to help build trust with consumers. Could you share some of those strategies? And perhaps also the results you've seen from leveraging them yourself?

Michael:

Absolutely yeah, that's a very good question. So I already mentioned about kind of building those communication, open line of communication, but communication is the key. Be transparent, be honest, because the status stage, if you look at the Edelman trust barometer, which measures the trust in government institutions, NGOs, businesses, media, we see that it's declining in the territory of distrust around the world and many countries, including the US.

However, if you look at the area where consumers kind of have a somewhat trust, there is a trust in a special US headquarter to private businesses. This idea that business becomes the catalyst for positive change is getting more prominent among consumers around the globe, including US, Sweden, and many other countries. So and where it leads us leveraging that kind of a global phenomenon of Gen Z that they wanted to be part of something good, contribute to society. And now it's spreading all over the generations around the globe, but they're looking at businesses as a catalyst.

Business needs to focus on what is good for the society, for local communities, CEOs being perceived as that source of communication from companies where they focus on policies, not politics, where they focus not on bottom line, but focus on what is good for my community, whether it's local community, whether we're headquartered or at the country level. And that's the big demand.

Also another one, which is very important, us as employees. And you probably thought I can second that and I know you're doing lots of good stuff for your company. For me as an employee, it's very important to work for the company, which contributes back to grassroots society, doing something, not just talk. I mean really walk the walk, right? So that means donating money or coming together with local community, doing something for the good of that community, really showing with with action, right? Or maybe doing something for employees, which showcases that the company understands and values those employees, that they're also humans.

And the last piece, really treating your customers and your employees, meaningful careers in a sense, from humanistic standpoint of view. Even if we represent those brands, companies, we need to show that we're also human beings and we understand Mr. and Mrs. consumer, or client in the BTB environment, because they're also humans. And once we start treating each other as humans, showing that empathy that we're going for those, I would say tough times, right? In the high inflation, geopolitical disruption, fears of unemployment, losing your jobs. So again, supporting that messaging and action is extremely important for us as brands to build those memorable experiences and long-term relationships with our clients.

Thor:

100% agree. And I think that as you and I discussed outside of this podcast, it's also this reality that is the next normal, right? It's really more than the new normal – here I'm just quoting you now. Speaking of that next normal, you also released a fascinating report earlier this year on GenAI revolution. And we've been speaking more and more about GenAI on this podcast, but I think your report investigated an angle that we haven't spent as much time on. The impact on consumers. Can you tell us a bit more about this research that you did?

Michael:

Oh, absolutely. Good you ask actually, because it's something I think we all need to start paying attention to. And it's kind of taking the overall shopping, especially industry by storm. So what I observed that in the last six months, there is a somewhat significant increase in early adopters of generative AI. And many people know it by some brands like ChatGPT, Bart, many others, when they actually not only interacting with other people or doing something, but also when they shop and it starts changing the dynamic of how people are actually shopping.

What's interesting if we're talking about the United States, for example, or in Canada. In US, every fifth person saying, I am using generative AI on a daily or weekly basis. And in Canada, it's even higher, 22%. In the last quarter from Q4 to Q1, in US, the increase was three percentage points nationwide. So what it tells us? Fast rate of adoption. Number one.

Number two, when we look. And I conducted some segmentation through quantitative research to really understand how people use it. So what we see that there are several segments of type of users. One of them is heavy users. They use it for every day. They're very heavily involved – they are very heavy advocates of the generative way.

There is another one, let's say creative users, those who are inspired by it. Because for example, they cannot get the art which traditional media provides, and they use generative AI to create that art. Another one, those who actually learning something, whether it's translating languages, learning new skills, and they very much into the generative AI to do that.

And last but not least, productive users. Those who look into efficiency, probably like me and you, those who trying to utilize generative AI to organize the chaos of their daily activities, right? So they use it for a variety of tasks, even for helping them to schedule their day or as an assistant and stuff like that. And it's interesting how people use it, especially when it comes to shopping or reviewing products and services. They heavily rely on generative AI to do the product reviews, not just to do, but really summarize those to watch the dynamic pricing, to come up with better ideas. Let's say if I want to travel, what's the most efficient routes or pricing and stuff like that. And grocery, my research comes on top where you have two out of five early adopters overall saying that, yes, I use that when I purchase my groceries.

So again, it starts changing the dynamic. It's not only human to human relationship, but they also rely on technology. What's interesting in this research that when you start segmenting those groups based on usage, how they use it, what we see demographically that they're very similar, that millennials dominate those cohorts with Gen Z to follow. They're much more affluent than average, national average. They have a high home ownership rate. They're educated. They live in a urban area or suburban. So that means they're pretty much more active in their social lives. But how they use it is different.

And what it tells us, tells us that actually going forward, the adoption probably is going to continue to increase because younger generations, they adopting it at much faster rate. On top of that, they're very much involved with social media and not only just being involved with social media, they changing their purchasing habits because they make purchases via social media much more often and more than your average national, as well as they are gamers and they mostly play on mobile phones versus consoles or laptops, desktops. Again, it gives them opportunity to be much more agile, I would say, in their behavior. So they utilize that combined as a platform to socialize and experience the world and influence the world as well as financial activities.

That's very interesting because it will create new opportunities, let's say for products and brands where they can deliver even taste or services while I'm in a game or while I'm on social media and they will be able to like and virtual life order those products and services and being delivered to experience in real life while they in that kind of a social digital platform environment. And they are affecting their peers as much. So that's kind of a trend I observe.

And I think all of us as brands, whether you B2B or B2C or B2B2C need to start paying attention to how GenAI is being adopted by consumers. Because as we both know Thor, we talk about that GenAI is a big talk on the street for us in the research industry. How are we going to use it? Is it going to replace our jobs? But what I see that in the meantime, consumers jumped on it to really not only experience the world and be efficient, but also acquiring products and services from us as brands. And we need to pay attention to that.

Thor:

That's fascinating, Michael. I just love the things you've shared. And I think you've shared some really insightful learnings with us today. Now we are coming towards the end of this recording. And if you had to summarize, what's the one big takeaway you want listeners to get from this episode?

Michael:

Oh, thank you. First of all, you ask very smart questions. It's an honor to be interviewed by you. Honestly, I have a very high regard to what you do and the company. And your very prominent value to the research community, I would say.

With that said, I think, based on your experiences, my experiences, what we discussed. And we mentioned, and to your point, that next normal, what I call it, yes, it's a new normal, but it's next normal because it's not the effect of COVID or even inflation, it's just kind of this continuous disruption and dynamism. So affecting consumers and creating that volatility, it's not going away.

As a summary, I would say never stop, right? As a researcher. It's not the end in a sense, right? So what I mean by that, that you need to constantly up-skill your skillset, your toolbox. You need to continue with that natural curiosity. You need to be very flexible and continue embrace that change. And we both know in the corporate world, it means a little bit different, but in terms of the consumers, it's a constantly changing environment. I call it a stew pot of uncertainties, where us as researchers need to adapt as well to new research methodologies, to technology, to data privacy, to consumer again, changing behavior. So it's very, very interesting with one word, I would say exciting, because you don't know what's next, but you're trying to figure out as a researcher, right? And you constantly trying to stay on top. That's kind of that exciting roller coaster. And that's how I would define our conversation today: exciting roller coaster.

An insightful lunch

Thor:

It's a very exciting time we're in and it's a very exciting industry to be in. My last question for you, Michael, is a question I love to ask, which is who in the world of insights would you love to have lunch with?

Michael:

I would say Jay Walker. He's my role model.

I really love his topics on confrontational consumerism and next normal as well. So he's one of those beacons in our industry who I admire, who I look after. So, but also definitely my early on career was defined by Professor Kotler on marketing. Right. So he's one of the prominent influencers, when I went to my MBA program over 20 years ago. So those two probably. I know you asked me about one person in research, but those two people actually, I would say very much define my career path. So, but definitely if we talk about research, Jay Walker.

Thor:

Wow, this has been such a fantastic conversation, Michael. Your perspective on insights is truly unique, and I think we can all learn from it. Now, before we end today's episode, I'd love to return to some of the moments of our conversation that have really stuck with me. When we talked about the definition of an insight, you said that an insight is beyond the understanding of a behavior and is predicting what's next. It's the understanding the trend and where we are going including the business and the consumer psyche applied to help the business become more successful by creating great consumer experiences. When we talked about how to ensure you prove value to the insights function, you highlighted how it's a multi-step project. Educate your business partners in what you do. Always focus on highlighting how you can support them in driving better results on the bottom line.

And do this while continuously building relationships, continuously being proactive, bringing additional skillsets to the table. When we talked about what consumers are feeling and experiencing at the moment, you said that given the level of stressors consumers are exposed to in this next normal, we need to approach those consumers with human empathy in a way that you would have approached them as a human being. And remember that communication is the key. Be transparent, be honest. Lastly, never stop. Never stop to upscale your tool set and continue to embrace the change as it will never stop. And that's very exciting. Now I know that I've learned a lot from talking to you today, and I'm sure our audience has as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

Michael:

Thank you so much Thor. I truly enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for very smart and thoughtful questions. And it's an honor again. So thank you so much.