A Masterclass on Holistic Consumer Insights

In this episode of the Consumer Insights Podcast, we speak with Kristof de Wulf, Co-Founder & CEO of InSites Consulting.

A single insight can serve as a springboard to a wealth of ideas. However, not all insights are created equal.

To generate impactful insights, you need to take a holistic approach. 

In this episode of The Consumer Insights Podcast, Thor is joined by Kristof De Wulf, Co-Founder & CEO of InSites Consulting.

They cover:

• The core dimensions of an insight

• How insights help to detect opportunity and mitigate risk

• Why deep, varied immersion into the lives of people is essential

• The 3 gaps to narrow in order to get closer to your customers

• Why the entire industry might need to relearn “the art of insighting”

• How to take a more holistic approach to working with insights

• Why the term “consumer” might get in the way of being consumer-centric

• Why empathy is more important now than ever

• How to leverage horizon thinking in insights work

• Lessons in critical thinking from academia

• Strategies for elevating insights in your org

If you’re looking to dig deeper for more impactful insights, tune in to this episode of The Consumer Insights Podcast.

You can access all episodes of the Consumer Insights Podcast on Apple, Spotify, Google, or use the RSS feed with your favorite player. Below, you'll find a lightly edited transcript of this episode.

Thor Olof Philogène: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Consumer Insights podcast. Today I'm excited to have a brilliant Insights leader joining me for what I know will be an engaging conversation. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Kristof de Wulf, co-founder and CEO of Insights Consulting, a global consumer insights and collaboration agency that works with more than a third of the world's top global brands, helping them to thrive and to drive customer centricity forward. Kristof, thank you so much for joining me.

Kristof De Wulf: Thank you for having me, Thor. And thank you for referring to me and using the word brilliant. People typically don't do that.

Thor: I'm in good company. So firstly, maybe, Kristof, could you take a couple of minutes to tell us about yourself, your journey and how you came to work in the roles you're in today? How did it all begin?

Kristof: Yeah, happy to do that. I actually started my career 1993, so that's unfortunately a long time ago, I started as an academic. Not intentionally, because I actually never wanted to end up as an academic. But your career can take strange turns or departure points. 

I was actually called by a professor asking me, “Do you want to work for the business school?” And I said, “Yeah, maybe I'll consider." And I went to a job interview, and I got it to my surprise at that business school. 

It's called Vlerick Business School in Ghent, Belgium. I got to know my three co-founders. So actually we started InSites Consulting with four. And at one point in time, somebody (we still had offices, like private offices) comes into my office, something again, which is an old concept, and asking me, “Well, what do you think? Shouldn't we start a business on our own next to our activities within the business school?” That was also okay for the business school. And so we started a business in 1997. 

So four years after, I started working there. That's now 25 years ago. And from there we started building and growing first, quite organically, out of Belgium, opening doors in Rotterdam, in London, in Timișoara, in Paris, and I became a CEO only ten years ago. 

So in 2012, the business was bigger back then, and people thought Kristof is the best person who will guide the business in the next years. Only four years ago, we have a private equity investor called Menta Capital stepping into the structure to support mainly our acquisition strategy. 

And so today we are a business of a bit more than 100 million Euros. We have around 850 people on the payroll, and we service our clients from 20 different offices spread across pretty much all continents. So it has changed quite dramatically over those 25 years from one person to 850. So it has been a fantastic journey. 

Next to my professional description, I live and work mainly out of Belgium. I live in West Flanders, a small town called Ypres, pretty renowned from a World War I perspective. We will not touch on that. But if you are a tourist, you should visit that place. And I live there with and happily married with my wife, two daughters aged 13 and 15. And next to that there is a dog, there's chickens, and even three Shetland ponies.

Kristof's definition of an insight

Thor: Wow, what a background. And thank you for sharing about your family there. That's interesting. I need to ask you about that later on. 

Tell me if we start with the foundations, I mean we are in the insights space, how would you define an insight? And do you have any stories that could help us understand why you've chosen that definition?

Kristof: Yeah, good question, good start. And I think the word insight is probably one of the most used, but also misused, maybe sometimes even abused words. 

So maybe I would like to start with what we don't consider to be an insight. So an insight for us is not a hypothesis, it's not an observation, it's not an idea, so it's none of those things. 

We'd like to think of an insight as something which responds to three different characteristics, and the first we call “It's me.” And “It's me” for us means a good insight is relevant for a consumer. It starts from a personal identification with something. So it is something you feel which resonates with you as a person. I think that's one. So that we call “It's me”. 

The second key dimension in an insight is what we refer to as “Aha!”. So it should be fresh, it should present a new way of looking at things. It should probably also not be apparent immediately. It's something which is tucked away. It's latently there, but you only realize it's true the moment you hear it. It brings something to the surface that was there kind of subconsciously for a long time, but it then strikes you, “Oh my God, yes, I should have known this. But now I realize when I see it, when I hear it, when somebody tells it, I recognize it,  it's kind of ‘Aha!’”. 

If you combine all three like, it is really personal, it is something fresh and new, and it drives you emotionally, you want to walk away and move away from a friction, it is a great insight.

So “It's me”, “Aha!” is a second one, and the third one for us, essential for an insight, is emotion. So an insight should have some emotional balance. There needs to be a desire on behalf of the person experiencing a kind of friction to find this potential solution. 

So if you are not feeling that desire, it means it might be some meaningful observation but it's not moving the needle, it doesn't bring people into action, it doesn't activate anyone to find a solution. 

And if you combine all three like, it is really personal, it is something fresh and new, and it drives you emotionally, you want to walk away and move away from a friction, it is a great insight. And maybe an illustration might be good. 

And I'll use an example of something a long time ago. It's the introduction of the Volkswagen Beetle. We all know that strange, odd-looking car, definitely back in the 50s. In the 1950s, it was introduced on the US market. And if you mentally depict and you walk in the streets of New York in the 50s, Thor, maybe I'm going to ask you a question. What do you see? Move yourself 70 years ago and walk in the streets of New York, how does it look like? What types of cars are you looking at?

Thor: It looks very different from the types of cars I would have expected to see in the streets of New York.

Kristof: Yeah. So you would typically look at very huge cars, large, with wings, with nice colors, with chrome. It would look very different from a Volkswagen Beetle. And now the question is, what is the key insight behind the success of the Beetle? 

Because it has been a massive sales success, and that's maybe counterintuitive if you look at what the market was all about, which is big, large cars that are consuming a lot of fuel. 

So the insight actually is not necessarily that it consumes less fuel, not necessarily that it is smaller and it's easier to park, not necessarily because it has a different shape, but probably the mere fact that it stands out. 

It's different was a strong insight because all the cars look the same. So I think a brand like Apple kind of used the same thing, different campaign, while Volkswagen was a little bit earlier doing the same in the automotive industry. So it's very much, “It's me”  because I want to stand out, “Aha” is like there's a space here I can claim because everybody is doing the same and some people want to stand out in society. 

And I think it's just a strong generic insight. Lots of brands can use it as a springboard to ideas and refresh the category and find new innovations.

Fueling innovation through insights

Thor: I absolutely love that definition and that framework that you're suggesting to think about this and how you define that insight. 

Kristof, you've worked with several leading companies and brands, brands like Danone, Unilever, Mars, PepsiCo. Could you give us an example of a time during your career when you've helped uncover insights, insights that have fuelled innovation, perhaps allowing them to build a better product or a better campaign? Tell us about the journey.

Kristof: Yeah, sure. I can just mention a couple of examples. And of course, there's always a tricky part here because our clients, of course, want us to treat that information, most of the time, very confidentially. So it's hard to be really open about it, but I can give an example or two. 

So I think a nice example is what we did for Bloomingdales in the US. So Bloomingdales, as you know, is a US department store. The insight behind the ultimate solution, which was later referred to as a millennial beauty store, Glowhaus, that's how it's called. 

And the insight we started from is the realization that typically the brands millennials see, for example, in YouTube tutorials or on Instagram, those brands are often not available in traditional channels like a retail store. 

So those brands are typically smaller. They're typically sold exclusively direct to consumer. There is no retail in between. And so shoppers, often they can't sample them, they cannot try them out in store. So that was kind of the insight we started from. 

And the insight we started from is the realization that typically the brands millennials see, for example, in YouTube tutorials or on Instagram, those brands are often not available in traditional channels like a retail store. 

So those brands are typically smaller. They're typically sold exclusively direct to consumer. There is no retail in between. And so shoppers, often they can't sample them, they cannot try them out in store. So that was kind of the insight we started from. 

And so the impact or the idea is to create a store, Bloomingdale's, Glowhaus, which is a beauty store specifically geared to the needs of millennials. And so most of the brands you will find in Glowhaus are available in that department store for the very first time because typically they would go direct to the consumer. So it is new and it is fresh. So it's a beauty store specifically developed for, but especially with, millennials. So in the communities we run, we have optimized the concept to the needs of millennials. 

So not just what should be available in store, but how the store functions, and so on. We launched Glowhaus after a seven month iterative innovation journey in five locations with people from those locations. 

It featured, after all, in market, over 800 products, all priced under $100. And only just a few months after launch, Glowhaus was awarded with the retailer of the year award for that specific launch. So I think it's a nice example to see, okay, how can a well known, traditional, long established Bloomingdale's department store stand out and do something very specific based on a need millennials have? So I think that's one example I could give you.

The hard work of uncovering insights

Thor: And Kristof, maybe if I interrupt you there and say when you describe it, it sounds so obvious. It sounds like that. Of course they would need that, right? But I know it wasn't because it never is. 

So why don't you tell us a bit about the journey? How did you uncover the insight that created the opportunity? Because I can imagine it was messy, right?

Kristof: It is in a way messy. And as you pointed out, 

There are always more reasons not to do things and consider things than to do them because you have an established business model. So breaking it, or reinventing it, or coming up with something new is always risky, right?

So we are here not only to detect opportunity, but also to make sure the money spent is well spent, and it's not too risky. So I think that from a brand perspective is always important. So in this specific case, it was a lot and that's what we do a lot for other brands as well. A lot about deep immersion into the lives of millennials.

Typically, we would bring them on our community platform called Square. We would spend lots of time with them. We would go on journeys with them. They would make pictures and movies of what they do. They would talk among each other as to what is frustrating them.

There are always more reasons not to do things and consider things than to do them because you have an established business model. So breaking it, or reinventing it, or coming up with something new is always risky, right?

So there is a whole diverse set of activities we typically deploy where we derive observations from, and we turn those observations, step-by-step, into insights.

Because the observations are the rough material we work with. It's meaningful. It's there. We feel it might have potential, but then we will also validate that, like, how important, how big is the tension and the need for change on the part of the millennials? How big is the need to sample and try it in store? 

If that isn't big, it's not a great insight because then it's useless. People will just do it direct to consumer. So it's about uncovering yes, it's messy. Yes, it's multi dimensional. 

And at the same time, there's the art of insighting, on the one hand, but there's also the job to understand how big the insight actually is because this is where the risk dimension comes into play. 

So typically in those types of projects, we do both, right? It's combining the more creative angle, finding the insight in the golden nuggets with a more scientific modeling angle of understanding how big the need really is and measuring up against that across different target groups.

Thor: I absolutely love that. And sorry for interrupting you because you had another example you wanted to share.

Kristof: Yeah, another example, and it's a fun one as well. It's a company called Dorel. Dorrel is actually a mother corporate brand. For example, strollers for your baby, for your kids. You want to take them on a journey, you need a stroller. And what we did and it's again, quite comparable in terms of the setup. 

So again, in the process, quite some similarities. But we were working with what we call urban parents. So urban parents, if I'm not mistaken, in eight different locations globally. So that is China, US, Europe, pretty much all around in big cities. So we only focused on big cities. Think about Sao Paulo. Think about New York. Think about Shanghai.

And so the insight we started from is and it's called it's really phrased like that, “As a first time parent living in the city, I suddenly feel more limited in what I can do, where I can go and what I can do. So carrying everything my baby needs limits my discovery. So I want to explore the city. I have a baby. I need a stroller. But if I want to get on, use public transport, there's new needs or frictions or problems I run into. So I tend to discover less the city and enjoy the city because of my kid.” So that's a little bit of insight. 

What the brand, Quinny, which is one of the brands of Dorell, came up with is what they call you can find it on YouTube. It's called the longboard stroller. And what is a longboard stroller? It's a perfect change from moving away from the boring standard strollers, allowing parents to use a longboard, which is basically a long skating board, while their kid is in the front of the board. It feels dangerous. I know it feels dangerous. 

Of course there is a safety dimension to that, which is, again, on the legal risk side, of course, an important dimension to consider. But yes, it has a low center of gravity, better stability than an average longboard. So lots of sophistication in the engineering and innovation department, reliable handbrake, all of it. 

And it was also awarded with an innovation award. So it's a fun case. It's a wild idea. It was actually, I think, released for a while, but I think at the end of the day, it was not a huge success. 

It's not always a success, but I think it's a strong case to understand, okay, how can we take away frictions and combine the need to explore cities with taking good care of your kids and taking your baby along on those activities? So, just another example of how insights can drive innovation and move the needle.

Thor: I love that story and wow, I wish I would have seen one of those live.

Kristof: Check it out on YouTube. If you type in “Quinny Longboard stroller”, you'll probably run into how it actually looks.

Closing the gaps between businesses and consumers

Thor: We'll definitely do that. One of the things Insites focuses on is driving consumer centricity by closing gaps. And you specifically name three: the empathy gap, the relevance gap, and the experience gap. Can you tell us a bit about those?

Kristof: Sure, yeah. Let me maybe start with the empathy gap. I think maybe the most challenging gap to close because it's really helping brand stakeholders to escape their business bubble. 

Our corporate decision makers are always locked in into kind of business bubbles because we all carry a function, a title, we have a job, we have lots of responsibilities. And that means typically you take a narrow perspective and you frame things from the perspective of the brand, the function, the role, the objectives. 

And you don't think from the perspective of the market, and you don't step into the shoes of the, call it the consumer, or the human if you want to take a more holistic angle to it. 

So what do we actually do is we help brand stakeholders connect with the daily lives of consumers. So imagine we see lots of kind of centralized R&D hubs, innovation hubs, global decision making centers, headquarters as a result of consolidation and globalization of businesses and the big brands we are fortunate to work for. 

Our corporate decision makers are always locked in into kind of business bubbles because we all carry a function, a title, we have a job, we have lots of responsibilities. And that means typically you take a narrow perspective and you frame things from the perspective of the brand, the function, the role, the objectives. 

But the challenge of that is of course, you detach from the daily realities of people in their homes, outside of their homes and so on, and what they do or don't do. 

And I think that's a big danger right because you have some gazing or you’re kind of narrow framing what you are doing, you don't see the bigger picture. 

So I will give an example of what we concretely do for L'Oreal. So L'Oreal is one of our longstanding clients and we have been working with L'Oreal, running different communities, long term communities all around the world. 

But this new service is what we call Consumer Connect. And actually what we do, you could actually say we are facilitating speed dates between business stakeholders and everyday consumers. And so different stakeholders at L'Oreal have an assignment to talk at least to five consumers in any given year to just generate that “Aha!” I referred to earlier on. 

The thing is, it's not generating an insight; that's not the purpose. It is generating, you could say, intuition, feeling, rapport, understanding empathy for the life out there, which is the market, right? So I think that's the empathy gap that we talk about. 

There's lots of things we do there, but the Consumer Connect service is, I think, the most clear one to explain. But we have an academy as well, teaching our clients on the world of consumers or on trends, et cetera, et cetera.

It's about starting from insights and doing a really good job in understanding what insights make a difference. And then be extremely serious about driving fresh innovations from that, potentially for a long time. I think an insight is there to be used in varied, diverse ways. 

We don't see an insight as, “Okay, one insight delivers one idea.” One insight is a springboard to a wealth of ideas for advertising, innovation, experience, across brands and throughout time. 

But I think empathy gap, I think, is a big rising need for lots of global brands who have lost touch. And of course, we haven't forgotten completely about the pandemic. 

Obviously that has accelerated the need because the distance with the daily lives of people, because we couldn't see touch and feel and talk to them, was accelerated dramatically. So I think that has spurred the bigger needs. But I think also consolidation and centralization is doing that as well. 

On the second one, which it really has all to do with, the relevance gap is coming up with novel solutions like the ones for Quinny or the one we refer to, Bloomingdale's. 

It's about starting from insights and doing a really good job in understanding what insights make a difference. And then be extremely serious about driving fresh innovations from that, potentially for a long time. I think an insight is there to be used in varied, diverse ways. 

We don't see an insight as, “Okay, one insight delivers one idea.” One insight is a springboard to a wealth of ideas for advertising, innovation, experience, across brands and throughout time. 

Have we maybe lost the art of insighting? I see a lot of data in the industry, but I don't see a lot of insights.

So that's what we mean with the relevance gap– “It's me!”, “Aha!” emotion driving innovation from those significant, fresh, impactful insights. So that's the second pillar.

It is more traditional, I would say, in the sense that of course, any research agency typically is demanded to do that – “Give me an insight, and let me work with that to drive innovation.” 

Yet if you look at the failure rates of new product introductions, we still should be very much self-critical. The whole industry, I mean. Are we doing enough of that? Have we maybe lost the art of insighting? I see a lot of data in the industry, but I don't see a lot of insights.

And I think it's our job agencies and the industry at large, together with clients to maybe re-educate ourselves on that “art of insighting” because it is damn hard, it's really difficult. 

But I feel we've lost some of that along the way, the industry, I mean. And I think we need to bring it back because it is just so impactful. So that's the relevance gap. 

We've never seen the speed of change and the intensity of change so fast with the level of unpredictability so high. So there is so much need in redefining what relevance is from a market perspective. 

And obviously into the relevance gap, we know things are changing much faster, the world is turning much faster. There is one crisis either after each other or on top of each other. I would say either on top of each other today. Think about inflation, think about the pandemic, think about the upcoming recession. 

So we've never seen the speed of change and the intensity of change so fast with the level of unpredictability so high. So there is so much need in redefining what relevance is from a market perspective. 

And then the third one is all about delivery, right? The second one relevance is the promise. We have a fantastic product, it's going to do all those beautiful things for you, it's going to solve all the frictions of the world. But then it's about the delivery–really difficult. 

We talk about touchpoint mapping, we talk about brand experience, we talk about NPS, we talk about everyday experience. And as you know, brand experience today is holistic. Everything matters and everything needs to work together. And that's where that experience gap: are we living up to the expectations? And of course those expectations are moving. 

The best in class in any category is the reference point for all categories, right? So if somebody is doing a great job, in I don't know what specific domain, but we all tend to expect it in any possible category. And so that's also a really difficult job. 

So we help our clients close experience versus expectation and doing that in a very holistic way. It's not just about an ad campaign, a product experience, a price. It's about everything all together.

How to close the empathy gap

Thor: There's so much you're saying that I absolutely love Kristof, but I want to maybe spend some time on one of the elements you just highlighted. You talked about the empathy gap because I think so far in our conversation, you've touched on that human being on multiple occasions. 

And the definition of an insight really, does it resonate with you as a person? When you talked about the examples you gave with the Bloomingdales department store, but also the introduction of the Volkswagen Beetle, because ultimately it was about those people and those people being seen. 

And maybe if you give our audience some advice, you of course work with this on a day-to-day basis. But if you would give our listeners some advice, and a lot of them are insight professionals, how can they close that empathy gap? What tips and tricks can you share with them?

Kristof: Yeah, a couple of things that come to mind. I think the first one is

Try to limit using the word “consumer”, I know it's hard, or “buyer". But try to take the bigger perspective of the human perspective. And I know, it's maybe a bit of a hype, or we think it's a hype. We talk a lot about “ human-inspired" instead of “consumer-driven” and so on. 

But I think it matters. We are only a tiny slice of the day active as consumers or buyers. The rest of the day we humans are doing other stuff, right? So if the brand doesn't pay attention to that bigger, 360-degree picture, you're losing out on so much opportunity. 

Because a brand can be meaningful across a wide variety of use cases, occasions, and help consumers deal with their frictions and problems. 

So I think, shy away as much as you can from treating people as consumers and buyers. Because that just leads you into narrow framing again, because you look at it from the perspective of your brand, or your category even, and you don't see the bigger dimensions around that, that might be springboards or sources of inspiration for the business.

Shy away as much as you can from treating people as consumers and buyers. Because that just leads you into narrow framing again, because you look at it from the perspective of your brand, or your category even, and you don't see the bigger dimensions around that, that might be springboards or sources of inspiration for the business.

So that would be one. Go to your presentations. What words are you using? Try to redefine, try to rethink, try to take a bigger picture. I think that's something I think it's useful. 

I think the second one is pretty obvious in terms of empathy. Think about ways in which you can get closer to people. There are so many ways you can do that. You can give yourself assignments, you go to a store, you buy competitive products, you use them. 

You can think about involving them in many more activities than you currently do. We typically listen to consumers because we want something now from them, but then we don't have a continuous conversation even if we don't have questions. 

So just connect with people without asking questions. I think it's also good to just try to do that and think about ways in which (small and big ways) you can imagine you and the business and all the stakeholders within to think, act, and do stuff as if you are consumers, or do it directly with consumers. 

So this goes into of course the whole curiosity core of our profession. If you're not curious, obviously you'll never get there. That's the basic traits that I think every individual in the business should have. People also beyond insight, right? It's the insight people that are responsible for it. but I think the key assignment for insights people right now is not necessarily generating the insight, that we are moving to activating those insights.

We typically listen to consumers because we want something now from them, but then we don't have a continuous conversation even if we don't have questions. 

So just connect with people without asking questions. I think it's also good to just try to do that and think about ways in which (small and big ways) you can imagine you and the business and all the stakeholders within to think, act, and do stuff as if you are consumers, or do it directly with consumers. 

I mean the job is shifting from delivering it to inspiring stakeholders with it. That's a big change. It's big change management for organizations to do that with. Of course the agencies also need to redefine the role they have in collaboration with clients. 

And maybe a third one I would mention is try to be serious about horizon thinking. You are probably familiar with the horizon thinking of McKinsey. So there is horizon one, two and three. 

One is the now, two is the midterm, three is the long term future. Obviously, we all get sucked into the today, sometimes the s*** of yesterday, as you know, maybe even more than today. 

But trying to be very deliberate in: how many hours do we spend on today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow? Fighting against the magnets, pulling us into today. Too much short term thinking, quarter cycles, short term numbers. 

I know it's a struggle because a lot of organizations have the pressure of short term results gathering and needs. But I think it is important for any brand to protect and drive the future. 

So, again, there, what are we doing on many different levels for things that will only see the light five to ten years from now? How much of our attention and people and FTEs do we spend? How much of our work are we spending? 

And trying to really depict that and measure that, I think is quite essential because all things evolve, right? If you have segments today, those will look different in five years from now.

Lessons in critical thinking from academia

Thor: So much good advice, Kristof. I've written down a lot of them, so I definitely will bring a lot of them with me. I'm thinking also one thing that could be really interesting for people or listeners is that you started your career in academia. 

And I think what I would like to know is what aspects of your academic experience have you taken with you to the practitioner realm? And really what I'm thinking about is what were the skills you needed to develop, but mainly from the perspective of giving some of our listeners that are starting out on a similar path. Some advice?

Kristof: Yeah, I need to go back quite a number of years now, but at first my first spontaneous answer would feel like not too much, I think. 

But then again, if I start thinking about it, I learned a lot indeed from directly interacting in that specific context with peers, with professors, with different colleagues. So I'll probably limit it to one key element. 

And I think that is being critical about what you read and what you absorb as to what you think is knowledge and deriving the essence from a wealth of information. 

So as a person in an academic environment, you need to digest hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of academic articles in a very specific, focused domain. It's overwhelming. It's like, “Oh my God, will I do this?”

So what you learn is being quite focused on, first of all, is this new? Is this different? Is this adding something to what I've been reading already? And then what is the thing I should remember from this 30 page document? 

And then you typically read those articles at least three to four times. And that's quite special because we typically don't pay attention to anything we read. We scan it, we read it, we don't have time. 

So what you learn is being quite focused on, first of all, is this new? Is this different? Is this adding something to what I've been reading already? And then what is the thing I should remember from this 30 page document? 

So it's really learning about not to blindly accept something, although most of those articles are very nicely scientifically backed. 

Also the methodologies are not always that reliable. So you need to understand, should I believe this? Is that sound and is it well grounded into a strong methodology? 

So don't blindly accept it and maybe bringing it to the world of insights, making that connection maybe I think it's don’t turn too quickly an observation into an insight. Observation is great, it's a stepping stone, but you just need to understand is this strong enough and have we seen this before? Is it adding anything? So I think if there is one thing I would need to mention, I think it's this.

Don’t turn too quickly an observation into an insight. Observation is great, it's a stepping stone, but you just need to understand is this strong enough and have we seen this before? Is it adding anything?

Maybe a second thing, I'm a bit freewheeling but I think a second thing is you need to convince people in the academic environment that you are adding something specific, valuable to the discussion that is globally being held. 

So the convincing power, the talkative power, the fact that you should be able to connect and convince people all around the world from different cultures, I think is also maybe something I've at least been able to explore and do a little bit of during those three years I've been spending on the PhD but those ten years I've been a marketing professor as well. So that would be my takeaways.

How to elevate insights within the orgnaization

Thor: Very good advice. And if we instead talk to a different part of our audience, which is the people that are insights professionals that are senior but they are struggling to elevate insights within the organization. 

Some people talk about it as getting a seat at the table and going beyond the so what questions, what advice would you give those people? Because you've of course worked with this industry for a very long time but if you could give a couple of really solid advice points for the people that are looking to do that, what advice would that be?

Kristof: Okay, a couple of thoughts here. First of all, I think I would say not relying too much on a single methodology, so it's mixing approaches. I think the future is all about mixing and blending. 

So don't think that one solution, space or methodology will bring you all the answers. It's an illusion, it's naive. So taking that broad, mixed perspective is something we try to do as much as we possibly can. Obviously, there are always budgetary constraints so it's not always possible. We all want the fancy cool stuff, but it's sometimes it needs to be a bit experimental. It doesn't maybe deliver everything you expect from it. 

Don't think that one solution, space or methodology will bring you all the answers. It's an illusion, it's naive. So taking that broad, mixed perspective is something we try to do as much as we possibly can.

But being a bit bold and brave and explorative in that combination approach I think is definitely something I believe in and we see work. So that's 1.

Second one is, and we mentioned that a while ago is, work harder on not just mastering the art of insights, getting to insights, but really turning around the organization in storytelling and activation. I think it's a big job. I think it's underestimated how important that is. 

This is all about making people see and feel things. That's not the same as creating a PowerPoint document and having a one-off workshop. It's about campaigning continuously in a way. And that's a huge transformation.

I think the whole insight industry is preparing for and we are on the journey, but there's a big job there and I think the ones who do this very well will be the leaders of the future for sure. 

Yeah, and then maybe a third one. And I think that's definitely a trend we've seen over the years. Spend a bit less time on validation. Of course, this industry is validation heavy, right?

Quant is still by far and large the biggest job we think we need to do. Think about trackers, think about concept tests, think about all the things we want to. We are getting into that risk management mindset. It's time to move more to inspiration and opportunity seeking. 

Of course, there will always need to be a balance, but I think we've seen the needle shift from quant to qual and more explorative ethnography and so on. But I think we can push further. I think recession and budget constraints probably will drive that even further. 

Of course, there will always need to be a balance, but I think we've seen the needle shift from quant to qual and more explorative ethnography and so on. But I think we can push further. I think recession and budget constraints probably will drive that even further. 

If you would look at the mere size of all the tracking revenues or budgets that are being spent globally sometimes you can think it's madness. We get the same numbers pretty much maybe 1% difference. The frequency with which we measure and what we measure, is that still making sense in such a high paced, changing environment where the reference is always changing? So what are you measuring? 

So I think that is the third big trend that I think the smart industry leaders, insight leaders will embrace with the right balance. But we see the industry moving in that direction for sure.

Who in the world of insights Kristof would love to have lunch with

Thor: So much good advice, Kristof. And it really hurts me to know that we're getting to the end of our conversation here. Kristof, I've got one last question for you and that question is a question I love to ask. Namely, who in the world of customer insights would you love to have lunch with?

Kristof: That's an interesting one. Maybe I'll use a very strange one or a very out of the box one. The person unfortunately doesn't live anymore. So it's the late Steve Jobs, and the reason why I would like to have lunch with him: 

Typically Steve Jobs we don't associate with insights at all. It's all about the art of creating the fantastic Apple product. It's all about design, it's all about the solution. It's never been about the market needs. 

But of course I think we're all wrong there. I think Steve Jobs was a master in empathy. Seeing, listening, believing. He was also meditating a lot. So taking time for reflection I think was his mastery. But we all associate him with that fantastic product that changed the world. 

So I would like to just understand and have a deeper conversation on that and how actually on insight management from the perspective of Apple was being executed back in the days. It will be different today. 

So I wouldn't say this is the world of insights, although, that I think he is an insight master and we could learn so much from him, but unfortunately he passed away. He might not have been the best example of a leader and manager. There's nasty management styles that are also associated with this person, but that's not the reason why I would like to talk to him.

It's much more about empathetic skills that I think he owned and he didn't talk a lot about. So my lunch conversation would be resolving around that.

Summary

Thor: If I would have had a possibility to eavesdrop on that, that would have been the most amazing conversation. 

Wow, this has been such an insightful conversation. Kristof, it's been fantastic to get your perspective on how to foster more consumer-centric brand cultures. 

I've learned so much and if I play some of the elements I've picked up back:

I love the way you describe the word insight as one of the most used but also abused and misused. And that it's not an observation, it's not an idea. It is actually something that needs to respond to a couple or three things. “It's me”, it's relevant, it resonates with me as you as a person. 

The second one being the “Aha!” moment, the fresh, the presenting a new way of looking at things and thinking about things. And the third one being the emotion. It needs to be a desire on the party, experiencing the friction to want to get to a solution. 

You give us some really strong examples from the Volkswagen Beetle launch and also in your working with Bloomingdale’s in helping them launch the Glowhaus, the beauty store servicing millennial consumers geared to their needs.

I absolutely love what you talked about the experience gap, i.e. the delivery of a holistic brand experience and making sure there is no gap there because are we living up to the expectation, knowing that the best in class is the reference point for everybody.That's definitely something I will bring with me. 

You also advise us to stop treating people as consumers and buyers and remember that we're only a tiny slice of the day acting as consumers. The rest, we're humans. And just make sure you have that 360 perspective. 

Lastly, be serious about your horizon thinking. How many hours do you spend on the different horizons? Today, tomorrow, next month, next quarter, next year, next ten years? Kristof, I know that I've learned a lot from talking to you today and I'm sure our audience has as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

Kristof: Was my pleasure Thor.